Debt Negotiations with Chase, Discover, Citi, Capital One, GE Money Bank

[Confuzed]

That is what I thought I read and that's why I asked because isnt it usually the other way around? In the case of collections, a JDB, suing, isnt it usually the case that they cannot submit proof that you owe the money (I've read on here that usually original creditors/banks do not sue for unsecured debt but collection agencies do and they usually do not have the proof when you DV them or show up to fight a judgment. I am beginning to worry now after reading your case but on the other hand many people win in court/make the JDB go away because they lack the request of DV. Is POF=DV? Please explain, thanks again!!!

[BigJohn]

POF is almost like DV but POF is provided to the court whereas DV is provide to you.

"(I've read on here that usually original creditors/banks do not sue for unsecured debt but collection agencies do"

I got sued by 2 creditors, both of them banks.

Original creditors assign the debt to collection agencies but from what I have seen, the collection agencies that are working with assigned debt don't seem to sue, they turn the debt back to the original creditor.

There are times the collection agency buys the debt. In this case the collection agency is generally known as a JDB (Junk Debt Buyer).

At times it is hard to know who owns the debt and who is working as an agent (assigned) to try to collect the debt. Being some of these people don't seem to be the most honest of people, I suggest keeping good records.

[treehugger1]

BigJohn, Great explanation. I think there is much confusion related to CA's. The difference between a CA buying the debt (JDB) and a CA only assigned to attempt to collect the debt under contract is a distinction that escapes many debtors. It is important to track "WHO" owns the debt.

[Confuzed]

Big John,
How old were your debts? Unsecured credit card debt?
Most of my research/reading states that many JDB don't have proper documentation to prove the debt (unsecured cc debt) was yours and the original bank does since they have the statements and original agreement. There is another forum where people have had a case dismissed because of lack of evidence. I am mainly referring to JDB after the OC has charged the debt off and at least a year has passed.

[BigJohn]

If the debt is 10 years, I would say the JDB has almost if no documentation pertaining to the debt. Newer debts probably have more documentation but I would say a person would have to be fairly sharp to win a case by themself in court.

I stopped paying my debts about one year ago.

The credit cards were all unsecured.

I had a $30,000 SBA loan that went unsecured.

We had a furniture loan for about $10,000 that went unsecured.

[BigJohn]

BigJohn, Great explanation. I think there is much confusion related to CA's. The difference between a CA buying the debt (JDB) and a CA only assigned to attempt to collect the debt under contract is a distinction that escapes many debtors. It is important to track "WHO" owns the debt.

After we filed Bankruptcy 13, I believe it was 4 creditors sold the debt we had with them to Junk Debt Buyers (JDB). Keeping track of this debt seems to be a new challenge for me. I guess it can get more interesting if some of the JDBs sell the debt to another JDB while we still are in bankruptcy.

[spidge]

I have about $37,000 in CC debt that I have not made a payment on since August 2007. I have been making small payments to an attorney to file BK and as long as I make a payment they keep the creditors at bay, for the most part. I have settled one of the debts outside the Attorney and would like to avoid the BK if possible. Is the debt reaffirmed through the attorney causing the clock to be reset? I have had a couple 25% offors but have not had the cash on hand to settle. Do most allow payments of some sort? I also have a notebook to keep records of conversations and communications.

[BigJohn]

In a Chapter 13, what makes keeping your records difficult is when a debt is sold after you file. They do not notify you of the sale nor of the purchase. You find this out on your own, that is if you find it out.

I guess where it can get really mixed up is if the debt is sold after bankruptcy and then is sold one or more times after that.

[optimistic1]

When it gets sold, do you need to list both the original creditor and the new JDB in your petition?

[catleg]

I think, and hopefully someone can back this idea up:
Anyone who buys the debt from the original creditor is an "assignee".
Since this can happen repeatedly, there is no reasonable way that the debtor can be responsible for knowing the ownership of the debt. Especially in this day and age of securitization.
Therefore it should be sufficient to list just the original creditor in a BK petition.
True?

And further, anyone filing a proof of claim as an assignee should probably be challenged to show that they are the legal owner of the debt, right?

Now, to put a really fine edge on it, suppose you file BK and notify the OC, even though the debt has been sold 3 times already which you may possibly be aware of. Are you under any obligation to notify the most recent JDB of your bankruptcy petition so he can file a proof of claim? Is the OC obligated? Can you play dumb here? In other words do we have to play nice and make life easier for the JDB scum or can we make their life a little more difficult?

[treehugger1]

I'll clarify based on my experience. OC's often assign your debt to outside collections but they continue "owning" the debt. At other times they "sell" the debt to a third party (JDB, etc.) I have only one BOA account that was sold to a JDB. I notice that on my credit report BOA reports a $0 balance and "paid." The JDB who bought the debt shows as a "collection." THey also show the "debt is disputed by the consumer," which it is. Isent their out-of-state contracted attorney firm a DV and they never replied (8 - 10 months ago.)

I realized that the debt was no longer "assigned" for collection when I saw the $0 balance on my CR. The many months of late payments are still reported as is the chargeoff. However, they (BOA) appear to have stopped reporting to the CRA's after they sold the debt, other than to post "paid."

Prior to the OC selling the debt, it bounced through several CA's. EVerytime I DV'd them, the account went back to BOA.

[treehugger1]

I'll add this...OC's often send out the debt to consecutive CA's when previous CA's have no luck. Once the OC has truly sold the debt, they have no right to continued collections. The debt is now in the hands of a JDB. DO not confuse a third-party debt collection company with an actual buyer of debt. While both are third-party under the FDCPA, the legal owner of the debt is not the same.

In a BK 13 case, I think it is very important that you know who actually owns the debt, an dhave them included in the matrix. Hell, I would include everyone, OC's, CA's, and JDB's just to cover my butt should I file. If Citi or others have actually sold the debt, then why on earth would they forward a POC to a BK 13 trustee? They have no interest in it.

[catleg]

Right, so my question is, if you file for BK, is it sufficient to list the debt as still owned by/owed to the OC? Cause really, they don't notify you when they sell it, you really have no way of knowing who the current creditor is except when they try to collect on it. In particular if you DV a JDB and they do not respond you have a reason to believe that they do not own it. You just know that *somebody* owns it.

[treehugger1]

Exactly why you should include anyone an deveryone who you know may have been associated with the debt. I don't know how important this is in a BK7, but it could be important in a BK 13 and the trustee's office would need to sort this out.

[BigJohn]

Right, so my question is, if you file for BK, is it sufficient to list the debt as still owned by/owed to the OC? Cause really, they don't notify you when they sell it, you really have no way of knowing who the current creditor is except when they try to collect on it. In particular if you DV a JDB and they do not respond you have a reason to believe that they do not own it. You just know that *somebody* owns it.

For clarification, after you file Bankruptcy, the creditor or the JDB might sell the debt, and if the debt is sold, the debtor is not notified.