Moving Abroad & Bankruptcy

[jamescp1998]

Hi,

I have credit card debt that I can't pay due to a divorce. I plan on moving abroad soon and I am not sure whether I should file bankruptcy before I go. The only trouble with that is that I would have to come back to the U.S. especially for the creditors meeting. If I just move can the creditors/collection agencies do anything. I have no assets here but I am worried about them finding me abroad and ruining my credit etc. there.

I would appreciate any help.

Thanks.

[magyar123]

File ASAP - while you're still here and attend your 341 hearing - which should be about 30 days after your filing.
If you just move overseas without paying your debts here - and the creditors find out where you moved - they might get a judgment here and run to your new country's embassy who may or not honor that court judgment.

[BigJohn]

I don't think a judgement can be enforced in another country.

[PoorGrammyinBK7]

I read that in some countries it can - BUT - it would be so expensive that it would really have to be worth the time and money spent.

[BigJohn]

If a person moves overseas and a creditor files a judgement against them, who is going to enforce the judgement? Some countries might have treaties were a person can be extradited but who is going to pay for the travel expense plus the cost of picking the person up?

[cool33097]

10000000% agree with with Big..., you are judgement proff in another country.
you need to comit a felony of at least 1st degree to be extradite.

[BigJohn]

OMG, here we go again....EXTRADITED???? Are you serious? John I have nothing against you personally, just you give the worst advice.

Here is the definition of Extradition: Extradition is the official process by which one nation or state requests and obtains from another nation or state the surrender of a suspected or convicted criminal. Between nation states, extradition is regulated by treaties. Between sub-national regions (for example, the individual states of the U.S.), where extradition is required by law it is more accurately known as rendition.

OK look, you need to be criminal, no one has broken a law in the US for failing to pay a debt. So you cannot be extradited for a judgment. All you are is a skip. You are no different than anyone else who didn't pay and has a judgment. Matter of fact you are better off since no one is going to be able to collect it or get a garnishment or anything.

The only thing that might, might play a factor is this, lets say you travel a lot and make charges in other countries, it may be possible that those charges made while in that country might fall under the laws of that country, but the CC agreement you have is a US agreement and your a US citizen so I highly doubt you could be sued for charges from that country. As in you moved to say, China and still used your Amex card and then stopped paying. I would have to ask an attorney in international law, but your still dealing with a US based company, with a US based card holder agreement that I am sure has an arbitration clause that only applies to US law.

Its not much different than buying a car and driving to Mexico, you can't do a repo in Mexico and you can get a new title so long as you don't plan on bringing it back...LOL

As usual, you don't read my post carefully. If you had looked at my previous posting I had posted "I don't think a judgement can be enforced in another country." So please stop misconstruing my words as you have done in the past.

[magyar123]

Might also depend if the other country is a buttkissing ally of the United states. If you move to Iran or North Korea they will ignore any such requests by an American credit card company. Now - Great Britain and Israel might act upon it.

[allavdj]

I think your only concern is if you owe hundreds of thousands of dollars and you seriously lied in order to get that money. It's possible if that were the case the creditor might try to elevate it to some sort of criminal matter (fraud or something along those lines) and if that happened it is possible they would go to the expense of having you brought back to the states and tried. But we're talkin if you, for example, got some sort of secured business loan for $100,000, lied about the asset you were securing against, never had a business, falsified business documents during the loan process, and spent the money on hats and kittens. That might just piss them off enough to come hunt you down.

[PoorGrammyinBK7]

Just wondered where abroad are you thinking of going?

[WhatMoney]

Well, the US Dept of State has addressed the problem. The answer is, it depends on the country, treaties, and reciprocal agreements for judgements. Obviously you would need to be a very big fish in a US friendly country for someone to go to the expense of collecting, since they usually have to get a judgement in the foreign country based on the US based judgement. Not impossible but unlikely. I wouldn't hide out in Canada though. The IRS has even more problems going after tax evaders living in foreign countries.

ENFORCEMENT OF JUDGMENTS

DISCLAIMER: THE INFORMATION IN THIS CIRCULAR IS PROVIDED FOR GENERAL INFORMATION ONLY. THE DEPARTMENT OF STATE MAKES NO WARRANTY REGARDING THE ACCURACY OF THIS INFORMATION. WHILE SOME OF THE INFORMATION IS ABOUT LEGAL ISSUES, IT IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. QUESTIONS INVOLVING INTERPRETATION OF SPECIFIC FOREIGN LAWS SHOULD BE ADDRESSED TO FOREIGN ATTORNEYS.

GENERAL
There is no bilateral treaty or multilateral international convention in force between the United States and any other country on reciprocal recognition and enforcement of judgments. Although there are many reasons for the absence of such agreements, a principal stumbling block appears to be the perception of many foreign states that U.S. money judgments are excessive according to their notions of liability. Moreover, foreign countries have objected to the extraterritorial jurisdiction asserted by courts in the United States. In consequence, absent a treaty, whether the courts of a foreign country would enforce a judgment issued by a court in the United States depends upon the internal laws of the foreign country and international comity. In many foreign countries, as in most jurisdictions in the United States, the recognition and enforcement of foreign judgments is governed by local domestic law and the principles of comity, reciprocity and res judicata (that is, that the issues in question have been decided already.) i
The general principle of international law applicable in such cases is that a foreign state claims and exercises the right to examine judgments for four causes: (1) to determine if the court had jurisdiction; (2) to determine whether the defendant was properly served; (3) to determine if the proceedings were vitiated by fraud; and (4) to establish that the judgment is not contrary to the public policy of the foreign country. While procedures and documentary requirements vary widely from country to country, judgments which do not involve multiple damages or punitive damages generally may be enforced, in whole or in part, upon recognition as authoritative and final, subject to the particulars cited above, unless internal law mandates a treaty obligation. ii iii iv

If eventual enforcement of a United States judgment abroad is envisioned, you may wish to consult foreign legal counsel before you begin filing the complaint, serving process, discovery, trial, etc. v This may help ensure that the foreign requirements for enforcement are not inadvertently violated in the U.S. action. In certain foreign legal systems, a foreign judgment will not be enforced unless it satisfies not only international standards as to jurisdiction, but also internal requirements as to notice, and other requirements. vi Once a judgment has been issued by a court in the United States, formal legal proceedings usually must be initiated in the foreign country by your foreign legal counsel or American counsel licensed to practice in the foreign country. vii viii ix

PERSONAL JURISDICTION: It is fundamental that a court must have personal jurisdiction over a defendant before it can enter a valid judgment imposing a personal obligation on the defendant. Kulko v. Superior Court , 436 U.S. 84 (1978). In Pennoyer v. Neff , 95 U.S. 714 (1878) the Supreme Court set down the basic rule that a personal judgment against a nonresident defendant who was not served within the state, and who did not appear or otherwise assent to the jurisdiction of the court, is invalid. Over the years, however, the Supreme Court has substantially qualified Pennoyer to the extent that, under certain circumstances, a state court may properly acquire personal jurisdiction over a nonresident even though the defendant is not personally served within the forum state, provided the defendant has certain "minimum contacts" with the forum state "such that the maintenance of the suit does not offend traditional notions of fair play and substantial justice." International Shoe Co. v. Washington, 326 U.S. 310 (1945). See also, e.g., Hanson v. Denckla , 357 U.S. 235 (1958); Shaffer v. Heitner, 433 U.S. 186 (1977); and World-Wide Volks-Wagen Corp. v. Woodson, 444 U.S. 286 (1980). As noted above, foreign countries may find that the U.S. interpretation of this issue differs from local foreign law, rendering the U.S. judgment unenforceable abroad. For this reason, you may wish to consult local counsel in the foreign country very early in the U.S. proceeding, long before any judgment is rendered.

RETAINING A FOREIGN ATTORNEY: You may wish to consult your local counsel before proceeding with the expensive task of translating and authenticating documents for a foreign enforcement proceeding. The Department of State, Office of American Citizens Services can provide lists of attorneys in foreign countries who have expressed a willingness to represent U.S. citizens. See also our flyer Retaining a Foreign Attorney available on our home page on the Internet.

See also: Digest of U.S. Practice in International Law, Office of the Legal Adviser, Department of State, 1977, 993-994; Digest of U.S. Practice in International Law, Office of the Legal Adviser, Department of State, 1976 , 316-318; Digest of U.S. Practice in International Law, Office of the Legal Adviser, Department of State, 1975, 340-342; Whiteman, Digest of International Law, Department of State, Office of the Legal Adviser, Chapter XIV, Section 14 Volume 6, pages 225-253 (1968).

SERVICE OF PROCESS: For information about service of process abroad, obtain a copy of our flyers Hague Service Convention , Inter-American Letters Rogatory Convention (Service) , Service of Process Abroad and country-specific flyers through our home page on the Internet.

ENFORCEMENT OF A FOREIGN JUDGMENT IN THE U.S.: Enforcement of judgments issued by foreign courts in the United States is governed by the laws of the states. Enforcement cannot be accomplished by means of a letter rogatory in the U.S. under 28 U.S.C. Sec. 1782. See the Secretary of State''s circular diplomatic note of 2/3/76 to the Chiefs of Mission in Washington, D.C., Digest of United States Practice in International Law, 1976, U.S. Department of State, Office of the Legal Adviser, 306, 311 at 309 (1977). Under U.S. law, an individual seeking to enforce a foreign judgment, decree or order in this country must file suit before a competent court. The court will determine whether to give effect to the foreign judgment. As with most legal proceedings, it is necessary to retain legal counsel to conduct the suit. x xi xii xiii See also the Uniform Enforcement of Foreign Judgments Act (13 U.L.A. 261 (1986) and the Uniform Foreign Money-Judgments Recognition Act, 13 U.L.A. 149 (1986). But see , Ackermann v. Levine, 788 F. 2d 830 (2d Cir. 1986); Matter of Colorado Corp., 531 F. 2d 463 (1976); Clarkson Co., Ltd. v. Shaheen, 544 F.2d 624 (1976).

ARBITRATION: There are a number of international agreements in force to which the U.S. is a party on the subject of enforcement of arbitral awards. Inquirers may also wish to consult one of the many treatices on the subject or contact the American Arbitration Association, 140 West 51st St., New York, N.Y. 10020-1203; 212-484-4000, 212-484-4110; fax: 212-765-4874 regarding the operation of these agreements and other issues pertaining to arbitration. xiv xv xvi xvii See , Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards , 21 UST 2517; TIAS 6997; 330 UNTS 3; Inter-American Convention on International Commercial Arbitration , 14 I.L.M. 336 (1975). See also , 9 U.S.C. 201-208 (Federal Arbitration Act); Digest of United States Practice in International Law, U.S. Department of State, Office of the Legal Adviser, 1974, 761-763; Digest of United States Practice in International Law, U.S. Department of State, Office of the Legal Adviser, 1975, 895-897; Digest of United States Practice in International Law, U.S. Department of State, Office of the Legal Adviser, 1976, 791-792; Digest of United States Practice in International Law, U.S. Department of State, Office of the Legal Adviser, 1979, 1882-1885; Cumulative Digest of United States Practice in International Law, 1981-1988, Vol III, 3709-3718 (1995).

http://travel.state.gov/law/info/jud...cial_691.html#

[JayJay]

You could simply leave for 7 years and come back just j/k... but seriously.....

[debtmonster]

10000000% agree with with Big..., you are judgement proff in another country.
you need to comit a felony of at least 1st degree to be extradite.

True Dat!!

[finance_loser]

200k Student Loans, 20k IRS DEbt

I was a professional student, screwed up, am 55 years old and will have 25k saved up-- enough to flee to a European country where I should be able to get citizenship through ancestry. ( Not England)

I owe over 200 K student loans, and about 20 K to IRS. I have found the IRS to at least be professional, if you call them and tell them you'll be out of work for a few months, they give you a break and don't abuse you. The collection agencies from the student loans are dishonest unprofessional, masquerade as people other than who they are, ( for instance making believe they are offering credit cards etc. )

When they did that , I was almost happy, because, well you crossed the line pal, let's see who laughs last.

My anger notwithstanding, If I move the 25k I will have saved up while making the required payments on this stuff, and:

1) Move the money into an offshore account.
2)Keep on top of the IRS debt and tell them what's up, make whatever payments I can negotiate.
3) Just go dark on the student loans, disappear, pay nothing anymore.

Will I be guilty of fraudulent conveyance?

Thanks

[finance_loser]

(Cross-Post) Owes 225k Student Loan, Flying the coop for good

I was a professional student, screwed up, am 55 years old and will have 25k saved up-- enough to flee to a European country where I should be able to get citizenship through ancestry. ( Not England)

I owe over 200 K student loans, and about 20 K to IRS. I have found the IRS to at least be professional, if you call them and tell them you'll be out of work for a few months, they give you a break and don't abuse you. The collection agencies from the student loans are dishonest unprofessional, masquerade as people other than who they are, ( for instance making believe they are offering credit cards etc. )

When they did that , I was almost happy, because, well you crossed the line pal, let's see who laughs last.

My anger notwithstanding, If I move the 25k I will have saved up while making the required payments on this stuff, and:

1) Move the money into an offshore account.
2)Keep on top of the IRS debt and tell them what's up, make whatever payments I can negotiate.
3) Just go dark on the student loans, disappear, pay nothing anymore.

Will I be guilty of fraudulent conveyance?

Thanks