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Debt verification vs. debt validation...

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    #16
    Let me take a stab at clearing things up based on my understanding...

    First thing to clarify is "validation" vs "verification". These words are often used interchangeable, but refer to two different aspects of the FDCPA.

    Validation, in terms of FDCPA, refers to the "Collections Agencies" validation notice that they must include in initial communications with the debtor. The validation notice is what informs the debtor that they have a "right" to verification. Validation is also an important word because as part of a "debtors" right to verification, they debtor must "dispute" the validity of the debt. But the debtor does NOT request validation of their debt, the debtor request verification.

    As part of that "validation" notice, the collection agency must disclose the amount of debt owed and the name of the debtor.

    So what is "verification". Unfortunately, the FDCPA did not fully define what constitutes sufficient verification, 15 USC 1692g(b). First and foremost, the debtor should make the request in writing, and in that letter, the debtor must say something to the effect of '"I dispute the validity of xyz debt." (you are not required to give specifics of your dispute, but, your reasons are important for purposes of what the CA must do in response to a verification of the request). The reason verification is a vague concept is that there can be many reasons for a dispute...the general rule for verification is that the CA has complied with verification if the information provided by the CA is "responsive" to the debtor's request.

    Thus, a debtor cannot simply say, I dispute this debt, please verify. Unfortunately, even though you do not need to specify the grounds for your dispute (for purposes of kicking in certain provisions of the FDCPA related to verification, i.e. the CA must stop collection efforts while verification is sought), the debtor will need to specify what is required for the CA to verify. The FTC guidelines basically say that a CA would probably have to have the following from the creditor in order to respond to a verification request...itemization of the of the amount of the debt, the name of the debtor, a statement that the debt has not been paid.

    In essence, all the collection agency need to do to verify a debt is show "something" that identifies the debtor, and identifies the amount owed. In fact, it was held in Spears v Brenna 745 N.E.2d 862 that a CA providing the original contract was actually "insufficient" to verify the debt...reason being, it did not indicate the amount owed and an accounting of the amount owed. For credit cards, the most recent account statement is probably sufficient to satisfy verification. Thus, even if the debtor specifically requests the "original signed contract" the CA is allowed to "editorialize" that request and send you something that accomplishes a similar purpose, i.e. that your name is somehow associated with the account in question.

    Practical Advice...if you have collection agencies coming after you, you should ALWAYS request verification, but realize, that verification is largely an empty concept. Unless you actually dispute the debt, or are attempting to "really" bring an FDCPA violation action, all verification accomplishes is buy you a few weeks where collection activity must cease while the CA gets verification, once they have verified, regardless if the verification is sufficient, you are back to square one. CA's violate the FDCPA all the time, but the burden is on you to bring the action against them, so realize that unless YOU are willing to enforce your rights under the FDCPA, verification is a useless concept to you. Also, keep in mind that FDCPA claims, and other similar claims, are NOT defenses to you owing the debt, assuming the debt is legitimate in the first place (which is the case most the time), you still owe the debt regardless of how unscrupulous the CA's or Debt Buyer's become.

    A note on chain of custody: it is not clear that CA's need to verify the chain of custody as part of the debt verification process, the chain of custody is raised as a defense to a lawsuit to collect the debt from the debtor.
    Last edited by HHM; 01-04-2008, 08:01 AM.

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      #17
      HHM, awesome! Thank you so much for weighing in on this and clearing things up.

      The problem then becomes, under the context of bankruptcy because this is a bankruptcy forum and we are in the "Collection Problems" area, a CA or junk debt buyer can send you notice that you owe them money and if you ask for verification, all they need to do is send you your last statement - even though this debt was included and discharged in a bankruptcy.

      Having said that, since a particular debt was included and discharged in a bankruptcy, the CA or junk debt buyer is simply out of luck and are unable to collect on that particular debt since it would be a violation of the bankruptcy stay for that particular debt, correct?

      (I hope I made sense with my question.)
      Chapter 13 Filed "Old Law"
      Filed: 6/2003 Confirmed: 3/2004
      Early pay off sent: 10/05/2007 - 9 months early
      11/16/2007 - Discharged!

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        #18
        Having said that, since a particular debt was included and discharged in a bankruptcy, the CA or junk debt buyer is simply out of luck and are unable to collect on that particular debt since it would be a violation of the bankruptcy stay for that particular debt, correct?
        Yes...if the debt is discharged, that is an absolute defense to collectability.

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          #19
          Like I already said, validation or verification, whatever you want to call it, is just a stall tactic by debtors, when they know the debt is truly theirs. The only time it really becomes important is when someone is trying to collect on a debt that you know, 100%, is NOT yours.

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            #20
            It's not what we have in our lives, but who we have in our lives and the quality of those relationships.

            Comment


              #21
              When a "new" CA calls always ask for the name of the person and the address. Document the date and time of call. If they continue to call, you might tell them you will look for their written notice per FDCPA. You might consider recording such a call.

              I had accounts with 7 CA's a while back. One verified as they were local and I worked out a deal with them.

              Two were not registered in my state, but a complaint to my state consumer finance division of teh attorney general's office shut them down.

              I'm still struggling with making payments, even agreed upon ones, after 15 months. I still don't know if I will eventually file.

              I could not pay everyone this month and will return to default on 3 - 4 accounts. They are all in the $800 - $1800 dollar range. I'm likely to let these go to small claims and allow a default judgment. I can afford 25% wage garnishment, so these would actually get paid off under garnishment.

              I have some very large CC accounts $5K - $12K. If I have to default on these (again) then I'll probably have to wait for them to go to CA's and request verification and eventually a cease and desist commuications letter.

              I have no other assets other than wages. I'm paid well and can live with judgments and future garnishments for a while.

              The DV letters do seem to work.

              Comment


                #22
                As more and more folks in financial crises learn their "rights" to request even simple information and more and more folks default on unsecured debts, I believe the CA's will have their hand's full.

                I know I owe debts to creditors, but I still will ask for verification with any third-party collectors. A person owes it to themself to make sure the "t's" are crossed and the "i's" are dotted.

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                  #23

                  2 points here. An fdcpa claim won't prevent anyone from suing. You use that as a counterclaim to try and mitogate any award the creditor may receive. Secondly, you won't get rich off an FDCPA suit. Damages are capped at $1K per action-not per violation.
                  A few states have laws that are similar to the FDCPA that allow for higher damages.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by keepmine View Post
                    2 points here. An fdcpa claim won't prevent anyone from suing. You use that as a counterclaim to try and mitogate any award the creditor may receive. Secondly, you won't get rich off an FDCPA suit. Damages are capped at $1K per action-not per violation.
                    A few states have laws that are similar to the FDCPA that allow for higher damages.
                    What's the difference between an action and a violation ?

                    I believe it's $1000 plus attorney's fees so I was planning to review with an attorney once I get multiple violations from the same CA.

                    Thanks for the info.
                    It's not what we have in our lives, but who we have in our lives and the quality of those relationships.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by treehugger1 View Post
                      When a "new" CA calls always ask for the name of the person and the address. Document the date and time of call. If they continue to call, you might tell them you will look for their written notice per FDCPA. You might consider recording such a call.

                      I had accounts with 7 CA's a while back. One verified as they were local and I worked out a deal with them.

                      Two were not registered in my state, but a complaint to my state consumer finance division of teh attorney general's office shut them down.

                      I'm still struggling with making payments, even agreed upon ones, after 15 months. I still don't know if I will eventually file.

                      I could not pay everyone this month and will return to default on 3 - 4 accounts. They are all in the $800 - $1800 dollar range. I'm likely to let these go to small claims and allow a default judgment. I can afford 25% wage garnishment, so these would actually get paid off under garnishment.

                      I have some very large CC accounts $5K - $12K. If I have to default on these (again) then I'll probably have to wait for them to go to CA's and request verification and eventually a cease and desist commuications letter.

                      I have no other assets other than wages. I'm paid well and can live with judgments and future garnishments for a while.

                      The DV letters do seem to work.
                      Thanks for sharing your actual experience. I know my mileage may vary.
                      It's not what we have in our lives, but who we have in our lives and the quality of those relationships.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by ssdsco View Post
                        What's the difference between an action and a violation ?

                        I believe it's $1000 plus attorney's fees so I was planning to review with an attorney once I get multiple violations from the same CA.

                        Thanks for the info.
                        Per action means a series of violations involving the same agency. You don't get $1K per individual violation. And yes, if you prevail you do get legal fees awarded. Here's the section of the FDCPA that deals with civil liability. Note too, that the award is set by the judge and is capped at $1K.

                        The Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) is a federal law that limits the behavior and actions of third-party debt collectors who are attempting to collect debts on behalf of another person or…

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by keepmine View Post
                          Per action means a series of violations involving the same agency. You don't get $1K per individual violation. And yes, if you prevail you do get legal fees awarded. Here's the section of the FDCPA that deals with civil liability. Note too, that the award is set by the judge and is capped at $1K.

                          http://www.creditinfocenter.com/legal/FDCPA.shtml#813
                          That is incorrect...it is $1000 per each "act" that violates the code.

                          So if the CA has 20 violations against 1 debtor, the debtor could conceivably get $20,000 in statutory damages, plus attorney's fees.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            No, it's a $1K per action-not per violation.



                            Look at the laundry list of damages-only $1000 per plantiff for the FDCPA violations.

                            The court Delores Maddux $250,000 in damages and $1,000 in statutory damages; Gilbert Maddux was awarded $254,253 in damages, and $1,000 in statutory damages; Jeni Maddux $109,717 in damages, and $1,000 in statutory damages. The three were awarded jointly another $3,117.

                            BTW, this was a really nasty collection effort. I've seen the actual ruling and it's replete with vulgar racial slurs. These guys likely still drag their knuckles in the sand.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              You are correct...I over stated the issue.

                              The law is somewhat unsettled (nationwide), the Seventh and Eleventh Circuit courts have ruled that statutory damages are $1000 per action (per lawsuit), regardless of the number of violations alledged. There are no, or limited rulings in the other circuits...mainly because these types of cases are routinely settled. Some trial courts hav not limited the jury to awarding only $1000 in statutory damages, but in those cases, the jury only awarded $1000 so there was nothing to appeal.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                If I am forwarding the initial letter from the CA to my attorney is it safe to assume that he is asking for verification or should i send a letter asking for it? My attorney says to send these things to him but what if he doesnt do anything with it? I asked the paralegal one time and she said the atty would only call me if there was something i needed to do.
                                pa308 (equifax fico 6-21 471) 594 on 3-09 671 7-09
                                filed ch7 6-12
                                341 7-25
                                Discharged and closed 9-24

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