how they discover accounts to levy

[JRScott]

Personally if your situation is so bad you know you need to file bankruptcy I'd go ahead and file. I fought the idea for 2 years and just dug a bigger hole. You'd save yourself a lot of grief by doing it.

[IOIOIO]

Personally if your situation is so bad you know you need to file bankruptcy I'd go ahead and file. I fought the idea for 2 years and just dug a bigger hole. You'd save yourself a lot of grief by doing it.

Can you say some of the ways you dug the hole deeper by delaying so I know what pitfalls to watch out for?

Because a JCE is issued via a court order, if the Debtor does not cooperate, fails to show, or otherwise, then the debtor can be held in contempt of court, hence, a warrant being issued and the sheriff being called in.

Since I truly have no assets how likely are they to waste resources subpoenaing me to answer questions in court? I thought they quit with garnishment. Checking out this list of questions, I don't see a problem, beyond the inconvenience of showing up in court, because it's all stuff they already know.

[HHM]

IOIOIO, in the sterile pages of this forum, things can sound worse then they really are...you really don't need to be freaking out over this. JCE's are actually not that common in the consumer debt context.

As for what creditors do and do not know, many people give them too much credit, they really don't know that much about you, aside from the info you provide and what is in your credit report, their really is no one database that holds ALL your info. (despite what the more paranoid of us want to believe).

Generally speaking, I am not a fan of the "do nothing" approach. Being Judgment Proof is temporary, and why live looking over your shoulder. The approach you should be taking is NOT...do I have a good reason to file, you need to be asking, do I have a good reason not to file. If you default on accounts and let them go to judgment, and let them go to secondary and tertiary debt buyers, even when you file BK, you will be cleaning up YOUR mess for years.

The only people who should legitimately wait to file are those where a BK won't solve the underlying financial problem; meaning, that even if the debtor files BK, they will still have less income then expenses (even after cutting expenses), those debtors are the ones that are either unemployed or underemployed and need to find a way to increase their income. Thus, they have a good reason to delay filing and perhaps delay for a substantial period of time.
The other class of individuals who need to delay are those with potentially fraudulent purchases or transactions, but their delay time frame is usually only a mater of 1-4 months.

Also too, the Do Nothing approach represent the repetition of the same psychological pattern that got your here in the first place...at some point, there was a decision or course of action that could have been made to prevent the downward financial spiral, but the debtor did nothing. Hence, the old Chinese Proverb, doing the same thing but expecting different results is crazy.

Finally, there is absolutely no benefit to you for waiting (except what, to save a few hundred dollars on a filing fee, please...wake-up). The longer a person delays filing BK, the more difficult, more time consuming, and more expensive their BK becomes.

[IOIOIO]

The only people who should legitimately wait to file are those where a BK won't solve the underlying financial problem; meaning, that even if the debtor files BK, they will still have less income then expenses (even after cutting expenses), those debtors are the ones that are either unemployed or underemployed and need to find a way to increase their income. Thus, they have a good reason to delay filing and perhaps delay for a substantial period of time.

Guilty as charged! Not only on the low income, but I've mentioned elsewhere the psychological factor of wanting to keep my head in the sand as long as possible. Not to achieve a different effect, but just to maintain where I'm at for a while. Everything you say makes sense, HHM, but the Nolo book does say to give the "do nothing" approach due consideration, and I've been trying to gauge its costs and benefits. I wasn't aware that the secondary and tertiary collectors of the future could end up costing me in substantial ways I'd truly be concerned about. I mean, when I file they all then stand in the same relation to me.

Due to checks written, accounts set up for electronic transfer, employers listed on forms etc. I'm pretty confident creditors know every financial thing about me there is to know. There isn't much and there's nothing to discover. Since my situation is so simple and some accounts have already moved on to a second collector (Mann Bracken seems to be the guy behind the guy), it still seems a coin toss as to whether to do anything at all. The only change I can see and hope for is when I secure a decent income, at which time I'll have a paycheck worth protecting from garnishment.

[Minnymouth]

I don't know if your "DO NOTHING" attitude would light a fire under a Trustee in a bankruptcy court, but it just might a Judge in the future......

You are trying to play the cat and mouse game of catch me if you can with the creditors...... and believe me one will catch you - when you least expect it!!! You have made a game out of your financial affairs and are looking for "more ways" to play the game......

Not only are you destroying your credit now - you are also continuing to destroy it for your future.....

It's not a game....... it's your financial future....... and in the long run you will pay.... one way or the other....

Please do not ENCOURAGE members of the forum that this is a fun and game thing to do with their lives. Many have enough problems financially without playing "catch me if you can"......

Maybe you don't have a problem/concious about not paying your creditors, but other folks do!

Most folks want to "DO THE RIGHT THING" to get thier finances under control and their lives back on track.....

Doesn't sound like you want to get your finances under control and solve your problems...... sound like you want to "avoid them" and "play the game"..... and are looking for more suggestions from others on how to keep playing......

You play the game, you will loose in the long run.........

My thoughts,

Minny

[IOIOIO]

I'm certainly not playing a game and I have no idea where you see me encouraging people to have fun with their bankruptcies. I can be much more frank in an online forum, but you don't know me in real life or exactly what my situation is. I try to keep my questions brief and to the point without dressing them up in emotional appeals because an anonymous online forum enables me to do that. Until now, every piece of advice people have offered me has been helpful, and I thank them for it.

[Minnymouth]

Playing the game is "how you are coming across to some of us"......

I know that you have been with the forum for some time now, off and on.....

Past post of yours also covers this same subject of garnishments, levies, etc... to which many answers were given to you.... yet you are asking some of the same questions again...

If you do not file bankrutpcy, yes you will go through the entire process of going to court, judgements, and garnishments in the future...... plus your phone ringing off the wall daily.

Why would you want to delay filing bankruptcy if you really need to do so?

[IOIOIO]

I don't know if your "DO NOTHING" attitude would light a fire under a Trustee in a bankruptcy court, but it just might a Judge in the future......

You are trying to play the cat and mouse game of catch me if you can with the creditors...... and believe me one will catch you - when you least expect it!!! You have made a game out of your financial affairs and are looking for "more ways" to play the game......

Not only are you destroying your credit now - you are also continuing to destroy it for your future.....

It's not a game....... it's your financial future....... and in the long run you will pay.... one way or the other....

Please do not ENCOURAGE members of the forum that this is a fun and game thing to do with their lives. Many have enough problems financially without playing "catch me if you can"......

Maybe you don't have a problem/concious about not paying your creditors, but other folks do!

Most folks want to "DO THE RIGHT THING" to get thier finances under control and their lives back on track.....

Doesn't sound like you want to get your finances under control and solve your problems...... sound like you want to "avoid them" and "play the game"..... and are looking for more suggestions from others on how to keep playing......

You play the game, you will loose in the long run.........

My thoughts,

Minny

Playing the game is "how you are coming across to some of us"......

I know that you have been with the forum for some time now, off and on.....

Past post of yours also covers this same subject of garnishments, levies, etc... to which many answers were given to you.... yet you are asking some of the same questions again...

If you do not file bankrutpcy, yes you will go through the entire process of going to court, judgements, and garnishments in the future...... plus your phone ringing off the wall daily.

Why would you want to delay filing bankruptcy if you really need to do so?

No one answering any question I've asked has given me the sense that I come across as playing a game. I certainly don't intend to give the idea that I'm following a "catch me if you can" scheme, which would mean extracting money and advantage from the system and hiding from the people you're defrauding. On the contrary, I've said (and my signature indicates) that my identity, bank accounts, paychecks, and (lack of) assets are completely exposed. I'm following more of an "I'm caught. What's the best way to get along?" plan. Page 27 of the Nolo book, in the section "Alternatives to Chapter 7 Bankruptcy," lists its #1 option under the heading "Do Nothing." I've studied that option and gotten lots of good advice about it on this web site.

You ask "Why would you want to delay filing bankruptcy if you really need to do so?" I've carefully considered my situation as it evolves, with the help of the Nolo book and this web site, and so far the "Do Nothing" plan has seemed the best option for my situation and things have worked just the way others on this web site have realistically led me to expect. Now that I've moved to the next phase of my troubles, I've posted more questions to make sure I'm still following the best plan. I understand you think filing immediately is always automatically the best plan, but, for the immediate future, filing wouldn't leave me in any better financial position than I'm in now. I think there are risks, costs, and benefits that have to be considered, and some of these are personal. For various reasons, filing would pose a heavier mental stress and burden on other responsibilities I must meet, but I don't want to use this web site to expose all the aspects of my personal and mental life and collect sympathy. I only ask financially related questions here, and given that I'm judgment proof, filing doesn't, for now, offer much benefit over not filing. The information I have collected from this web site has given me a good plan to deal with the phone calls and inappropriate or illegal debt collector contacts, and now that I'm in the collections phase, I've been trying to determine the costs and benefits of dealing with judgments and wage garnishments of a meager, irregular paycheck. Until today, all advice has been very useful, and the "Do Nothing" plan still seems like the best of all the depressing options for my situation, so it is as much of a "DO THE RIGHT THING" as any other the Nolo book advises.

You say "Past post of yours also covers this same subject of garnishments, levies, etc... to which many answers were given to you.... yet you are asking some of the same questions again..." but what you say is untrue. I keep copious notes of all the good advice I get here, and when the collections phase started recently for me, I checked my notes, used the site search, checked my previous posts, then asked new questions. If I've repeated any question I apologize. Please tell me exactly where I've accidentally repeated a request for the same information and I will personally apologize again for it and delete the duplicate request. My garnishment questions were already answered, and I even pointed to the thread where they were answered, but that same thread left my levies questions unanswered, so I re-asked my questions about levies, which people have done a great job of answering.

Once I get an answer, I don't repeat a question, but since many people offer shoot-from-the-hip advice, it takes follow-ups to get a true picture of costs and benefits. For example, if I ask something like "What are the risks, costs and benefits of doing X?", someone might answer "Never do X because this bad thing will happen" without giving a realistic picture of the likelihood that that bad thing will happen. Or if I ask "What's the best way to avoid Y?" someone might respond "You can never guarantee avoiding Y" and then, since when I asked for the best way to avoid Y I was asking for the best way to minimize the likelihood of Y, I have to repeat the question to make it clear that I'm asking for the best judgment calls people can offer based on experiences as to the risks of following a particular course of action. In the end I get a very good picture of the best thing to do, but perhaps my questions in a thread seem similiar until people finally weigh in with practical advice as to the potential success of a proposed strategy.

As you mention, I've been posting on this forum for some time off and on, though reading it much more. I was here several months ago when I first had to stop paying my debts, got good advice, and have now returned because the situation with debt collectors is new for me. I have again gotten lots of good advice, for example references to lawyers at the naca.net web site, which led me to lengthy, helpful phone conversations with two lawyers. People on this web site have also given me a clearer picture of what to realistically expect with regard to bank levies and judgments. When I was here several months ago, I got good information as to what to expect for the upcoming 6-12 months and things have gone entirely as expected given the picture people were able to fill in for me. Back then, I also helped this site out by reporting trolls who were eroding this site's usefulness. I think the trolling technique of making provocative accusations against vulnerable people prevents the frank discussions we need to have about financial and legal matters so that we can all determine the best things to do for ourselves and people connected to us. The inflammatory accusations made people who act in good faith respond with long defensive pleas and explanations that were way off topic and so hurt this web site's usefulness as well as people's feelings. It appears that until now you've done a great job preventing the return of bad behavior, and I can only thank you and hope that you and your fellow admins continue to put a stop to that kind of behavior as soon as you recognize it.

[Minnymouth]

Your "do nothing plan" might be the right path for you to take at the present time until you decide whether to file or not to file. You state you are judgement proof, garnishment proof, and low/none income wise.

But for many others it would be totally devasating to them...... they are not judgement proof, garishment proof, and many have assets they could loose, have liens placed on, etc.... They could be in a position where they loose their homes, autos, etc..... and still owe creditors at the end.... never being able to "dig out" of the situtation.

Other members need to seriously think about the consequences of "doing nothing" and the effects it could have on their lives and their future. This is what we as moderators are concerned about.

Since many of your questions deal with "legally what can they do to me?" - many of your questions should be answered by an attorney who is aware of your situation and circumstances.

We here on the forum do not know all the aspects of your case, thus we cannot give you good suggestions on what to do or expect.

We here on the forum are not legal advisors, we are a support forum only, we only talk about our own experiences, and what we have gone through and books that are available to help people who are considering filing, or have filed bankruptcy. We can give folks a general idea of what to expect, what paperwork they need to file and what to expect during the process.

Any legal advice you seek, you need to consult an attorney who can help you with the laws in your state.

Minny

[IOIOIO]

I'm not garnishment proof, just prepared to withstand garnishment of a small paycheck since losing 25% of a small amount won't change things for me.

You're right about the "Do Nothing" plan not being for everybody, which is why I always make the relevant aspects of my financial situation clear, and include it in my signature. I've never recommended the "Do Nothing" method to anyone on this web site, and have always made it clear that I'm asking about my own personal situation. If I promoted the "Do Nothing" approach to anyone on this web site it was unintentional. Please point to where I recommended the "Do Nothing" approach to anyone on this web site so that I can apologize for it. In fact, please point out anywhere on this web site where I made any kind of recommendation to anyone. Since I don't have experience, I only ask questions and do not promote courses of action to other people.

"Do Nothing" is not my own invented method as you say. The Nolo book devotes half its information on "Do Nothing" to explaining the risks and negative aspects of doing nothing, for example that interest continues to enlarge your debt and that if you come into any windfall money, you won't be able to keep it. The Nolo book says nothing in its "Do Nothing" section about doing nothing not being the right thing, or being somehow immoral, or requiring a lack of a conscience, or being a game, all of which you accuse me of without any good reason because I'm a responsible user of this web site. The Nolo book says nothing about no assets people who "Do Nothing" lighting a fire, as you say, under a trustee of a judge. Do you have any experience or knowledge of a judge or trustee who became enraged at a filer because they had no assets but did not file sooner? Many people here recommend the Nolo book. The lawyers I spoke to as a result of recommendations from this web site recommended the Nolo book.

I do not ask for legal advice from this forum, only people's opinions based on their own experience as to the risks, costs, and benefits of doing this or that. The advice here has been very good, it has always been clear that it can't substitute for legal advice from a lawyer, and that is clearly marked around this web site and in people's signatures that the advice here can't be taken as legal advice. If I asked for a professional legal opinion on this web site somewhere, I did not intend to. Please point out where I did this so that I can apologize for it.

I think it should be clearly marked around this web site that responsible contributors should not be accused of immorality, lack of conscience, and encouraging others to do evil things. I think the web site should clearly discourage personal attacks and encourage the exchange of information and experiences. Do you agree?

[Minnymouth]

IOIOIO,

Yes, the Nolo Book devotes a great deal to the "Do Nothing" plan concerning bankruptcy. It's devoted mainly to the "risks" that you are taking. All circumstances are different.

As I said before, as you are judgement proof, etc. then doing nothing can work towards your advantage. If not, you have a lot to risk to loose by not filing, not doing anything .

If a person can settle the problem without filing bankruptcy - that is great, hopefully it will protect their credit score, but usually that is already ruined at this stage. And yes, they should check out all the option available to them and also discuss these options with an attorney who is knowledgeable.

Bankrutpcy is not for everyone, only those that have no other means of solving their problem without totally destroying themselves and their future financial means.

You want to follow the "Do Nothing Plan" - that is your choice. Most others should view it lightly as it probably won't apply to them, and could leave them in serious consequences.

If you feel that I have questioned your morals, your character, your motives for asking questions and how you ask your questions, then I am sorry and apologize for making you feel that way.

I have all members in mind when it comes to our postings and the effect the questions and answers can have on all members.

We don't want members "thinking" this might work for me - when feasibly its not possible for them.

As for moderating this forum, we as moderators, will question any member regarding his/her intent or question his/her opinion when we feel that it is reasonable and we feel that we have just cause. That is our job. We certainly don't want any member "lead astray" or "misinformed" if we can avoid it.

Now back to your questions for the other members. I'm sure that you have more.

Should you continue with your "battle of the wits", that you seem to want to engage with me at the present time, I will lock this thread as it will no longer serve a usual purpose.

Minny

[JRScott]

You asked how I dug the hole deeper. I've not been around for a couple of days.

The first problem was the psychological effect of looking over your shoulder all the time. Particularly worrying when they might actually come. Then worrying what I'd do when they did. Their collection efforts also somewhat terrorize you, if you start skipping checking the mail because you really don't want to see it, or just unplug the phone except when you are using it then it takes a toll on your life.

In addition my debt nearly doubled in the time of doing nothing.

If I had it all to do over again I'd have filed back in 2005 and saved myself a lot of the mental anguish of the last 2 years.

It is a choice you have to make. Depending on your wage you might make so little that it is even garnishment proof, that can happen. Usually most states set it to 25% of your check or the amount over 30 times the Federal Minimum Wage (Some states do 40 times) whichever amount is smaller.

If you play it long enough they will summon you to civil court. It takes a long time, around 2 years. That's what finally got me on the road to bankruptcy. I needed a solution, couldn't ignore it any longer.

I'm just hoping that others don't make the same mistakes I did. I feel that looking back it would have been better for my health, my family relations, etc if I had bit the bullet back in 2005 and filed bankruptcy. You might be different though, it might not affect you as much as it did me.

[GoingDown]

While it is true that MOST people on this forum have assets and income to protect and SHOULD file bankruptcy as soon as possible, there are some of us who have nothing to lose and doing nothing is a realistic and viable alternative to bankruptcy, at least for awhile. If a person does not own real estate, has exempt income (such as social security disability, etc.) or income that is difficult to garnish (such as temp jobs, etc., etc., etc.,-- I won't go into much detail here on the open forum), uses money orders to pay bills and doesn't use a checking account, then there is very little that a creditor can do to them other than huff and puff and try to scare them into complying. Even if the creditor gets judgments against them, if they don't have any assets the judgments will be wiped out by filing bk. I won't go into any details, but some people on this forum and on other forums that I'm on are waiting to file bk until enough time has passed to make their bk filing actually work without having any challenges from creditors. In those cases, making themselves as judgment proof as possible and using the FDCPA cease and desist methods are about all they can do until they can ride it out long enough to file bk. Debt collectors are as corrupt as humanly possible, so I feel no moral guilt over not paying them a dime voluntarily. And while there are many horror stories out there to scare debtors, you need to keep in mind that debt collectors want to make money. If they figure out that a debtor is truly judgment proof, they are NOT going to waste much time on them. They will go after the easier targets instead-- people with real estate, people with steady, garnishable jobs, and people with stocks, bonds, CDs, etc.

[Worried Mom]

I haven't posted here in ages, but I do try to check in from time to time.

My son is one who apparently has decided on the "do nothing" approach. I'm not sure why he is going that way. His dad and I have offered to pay the retainer for the BK attorney. He just needs to get his act together and get it done.

I think he is judgment proof. He hasn't had a bank account in 2 years, he's riding a bike to work (car has either been repo'd or gone missing, not sure and I don't want or need to know), he does not own real estate or much of anything of value. It's certainly no way to live but he's old enough to make his own decisions. He makes enough $$$ to pay his rent and eat. That's about it.

I'm assuming his creditors have not yet located him, since they are constantly calling our home number. He has not lived in this state since 2002. I keep track of the calls I don't answer. They will call daily for weeks on end, then stop and a new batch of phone numbers start showing up. I've never answered a single one.

I have a machine that takes care of the unwanted calls for me. They don't even ring through, so that is not a problem for me. The problem is that I worry about him all the time. Do they still have debtor's prisons? In order for them to sue him, do they have to serve him personally with the court papers? My only fear is that someone will show up at my door with papers. He is not here and I don't know how I would handle that.

This forum has been very helpful and I have passed along a lot of information to him. I just don't think he's hearing me.

[GoingDown]

I haven't posted here in ages, but I do try to check in from time to time.

My son is one who apparently has decided on the "do nothing" approach. I'm not sure why he is going that way. His dad and I have offered to pay the retainer for the BK attorney. He just needs to get his act together and get it done.

I think he is judgment proof. He hasn't had a bank account in 2 years, he's riding a bike to work (car has either been repo'd or gone missing, not sure and I don't want or need to know), he does not own real estate or much of anything of value. It's certainly no way to live but he's old enough to make his own decisions. He makes enough $$$ to pay his rent and eat. That's about it.

I'm assuming his creditors have not yet located him, since they are constantly calling our home number. He has not lived in this state since 2002. I keep track of the calls I don't answer. They will call daily for weeks on end, then stop and a new batch of phone numbers start showing up. I've never answered a single one.

I have a machine that takes care of the unwanted calls for me. They don't even ring through, so that is not a problem for me. The problem is that I worry about him all the time. Do they still have debtor's prisons? In order for them to sue him, do they have to serve him personally with the court papers? My only fear is that someone will show up at my door with papers. He is not here and I don't know how I would handle that.

This forum has been very helpful and I have passed along a lot of information to him. I just don't think he's hearing me.

No debtor's prisons are a myth that creditors want debtors to believe in and fear.

Unfortunately, they will try to serve him at his last known address, and since you're related to him, they will probably come knocking on your door to serve him. The best way to handle it is to open the door and say that you don't know where he lives. It's not your responsibility to do their job for them. The lawsuit will still proceed, but it doesn't really matter, since it sounds like he's rather judgment proof. Depending on what state he lives in, he might get his wages garnished, so he'll have to keep jumping from job to job to keep his wages from being garnished or get used to living on 3/4 of his after-taxes income.