debt collector calls despite cease and desist letter

[IOIOIO]

I've read through the threads and the stickies, but suing and complaining to the FTC might not be the best fit for my situation.

I'm judgment proof and everything has been going according to plan since I made my last cc payment 7 months ago. I don't answer my phone and let my answering machine do all the work. Now that I'm in the debt-collectors-calling-me phase, as soon as I receive a written notice, I send the cease and desist form letter from Nolo's "How To File For Chapter 7 Bankruptcy" registered, return receipt. I keep track of who's been notified and when.

Suing for violations isn't realistic for me since, being judgment proof, I'm just letting everything go to judgment if they choose to sue me. I have no defense, only delay tactics. Since I don't have to deal with lawyers and courts, I'd just rather avoid as much hassle as possible. The FTC complaint looks like just an opportunity to contribute to national statistics and isn't designed to offer relief in individual cases. I can just continue indefinitely with the answering machine business and deal with the phone calls to family members when they happen, but is there any other practical way to attempt to get The Idiots of Evil to comply with the collections law? For example, I could open a criminal case with the police, which would then enable the phone company to put a trap on my line and trace the source of an illegal collections call.

What do people know about this law enforcement angle? Does the phone company contact the harrassing caller? Do they turn the information they collect regarding the harrassing call over to police local to the collector, who then make a discouraging contact with the collector? Or is this just a theoretical strategy, like suing and FTC complaints, and I'm better off (in my case) continuing just doing nothing?

[lrprn]

Suing for violations isn't realistic for me since, being judgment proof, I'm just letting everything go to judgment if they choose to sue me. I have no defense, only delay tactics. Since I don't have to deal with lawyers and courts, I'd just rather avoid as much hassle as possible.

It won't matter to the FTC that you are judgment-proof or that you don't plan to file bankruptcy. The FTC enforces the Fair Debt Collections Act, and that is what some collectors are flagrantly violating. That's all the FTC cares about.

What do people know about this law enforcement angle? Does the phone company contact the harrassing caller? Do they turn the information they collect regarding the harrassing call over to police local to the collector, who then make a discouraging contact with the collector? Or is this just a theoretical strategy, like suing and FTC complaints, and I'm better off (in my case) continuing just doing nothing?

Using the police is likely a dead end. They have far more important duties than chasing down a debt collector who harasses you over the phone while they try to collect a legitimate debt. This will fall to the bottom of their priority list.

The phone company will be more sympathetic to any truly harassing calls, but first you have to prove the calls are harassment. Since the collectors are calling to collect a legitimate debt from you, that reduces the phone company's inclination to push as hard as they would if you were being stalked, for example.

Sadly the reason collectors and creditors harass illegally is because frankly, it's easy to get away with it. They know you have little to no money, so there's little chance of ever being taken to court. Since their paycheck depends on how much money they can wring out of you no matter how they accomplish it and the chances of ever being fined a substantial sum for violating the law are almost zero, where's the motivation to do it fairly?

[CPO]

There are NACA attorney's out there that do not charge any fees up front that will sue collectors for violating the FDCPA.

It's easy money for them because the collectors are such obvious violators, leaving wide trails of evidence that can be gathered by novice debtors.

These cases rarely get into court. As decent evidence is hinted at by debtors attorneys to collector law offices, they almost always settle. The collectors attorneys can examine call records and contact info and have past knowledge of how their clients do business and so have the knowledge base to determine how their clients violated the law in most cases.

They simply offer to settle to get a debtors attorney off their back. The collectors attorney's don't care...hey, its their job...they think of it as job security as they are paid by the same hand.

They do this all the time.

And the settlements provide cash to the debtors and pay attorney's fees.

The truth is that most debtors are rattled by ******* collectors and make life so miserable that most are driven into BK of some sort or bend over backward to cooperate with these creeps to pay anything to get them off their backs.

So, collectors get away with breaking the law with abandon...

If your truly judgement proof, then I'd find an attorney and make it a habit to gather evidence (record calls, keep all documents and accurate records) and sue some of these creeps.

Hey, it's money for little trouble.

And, what do I know?

I have done it. I have my own system. I actually like to take their calls as I can usually get these idiots to threaten me or say something that's against the law.

I've already reached settlements with NCO and Mann Bracken and my lawyer is negotiating with Mann Bracken for another violation!.....because they are stupid and don't know what one hand is doing from another.

And, I'm setting up on Nationwide Credit as we speak(write). They like to leave recorded calls on my answering machine that identifies them as debt collectors, directs that this call is for me only and uses my full name and that they are collecting on a debt and any information gathered will be used for that purpose blah, blah, blah......

When I heard that collectors had started doing this on the debt consolidation forum, I erased my name notification on my answering machine announcment.

So, who knows who they called.

Nice third party notification...my girlfriend heard the message....

If you have the time, why not gather some evidence and make some money off these creeps.

http://www.naca.net/

Or, hey, call legal helpers at their 1-888 number. They have FDCPA attorneys on staff. Not an endorsement....

Ultimately, you can't stop the calls. They will call regardless of your letters and pleas if they want to. They could care less about the law, unless you take their money. And, even then as long as it's profitable to harass you even when they pay fines and lose lawsuits, then they still call.

Good Luck

CPO

Oh, and one more thing. Think of all the illegal debt collection going on with re-ageing (is that a word?) old debts and dunning on debts that have been discharged in BK etc, etc. I'm looking at my relationship with my FDCPA attorney as a long term one. I figure that after I'm discharged from BK, I will still be able to sue and collect many times my investment on all those illegal collection attempts for years to come. I have 22 creditors. Most have at least 2 third party collectors associated with them. You know they are selling these debts. Most of us are in the same boat. Even after we are discharged, we will still be contacted from time to time by some bottom feeding creep collecting on a long discharged debt. Dunning is a fact of life.

I plan on attacking these creeps for a long time. And I get better at it every day. It's a great education. I hope everybody learns the ropes and holds these creeps accountable, and earns alittle college money for the kiddies....

As a military retiree, combat wounded veteran and overall adrenaline junkie, I though I'd get lazy and just fade away.

HA!

I truly hope you get some too!

CPO

[IOIOIO]

Thanks for the great info. Regarding the phone company/police method, I was thinking that their signature accepting my cease and desist letter would be enough to show the phone company that any subsequent call is harrassment/illegal. I realize the police are useless, but I know the phone company requires a police report number before they'll put a trap on your line. The phone company's method is to simply contact the caller, which is enough to scare ordinary citizens away from calling you again. I'm just wondering if this actually works for debt collectors because this method is pretty inconvenient, kind of embarrassing, and AT&T is one of my creditors!

The FTC complaint process looks easy enough, but I think it's clear that complaints merely go into their statistics until they accumulate enough (and have the funding) to go after the most egregious abusers. I'm happy to do my civic duty and contribute to the FTC's efforts, but it appears clear this isn't a practical method to stop the calls.

The NACA looks really good. I found a boatload of attorneys in my area, some of whom list their experience with debt collection as "Advanced." It would be wonderful to have one person on my side whose confidentiality I can trust, but before I go and make demands on these excellent people's time, I'd like to make sure I'm not wasting it and taking away from resources needed by others. Since I'm judgment proof, the "just do nothing" method has to be the standard against which I measure any other plan, so I'd like to clarify some things.

If I coordinate with an advocate to sue for each violation of the FDCPA, wouldn't the debt collector naturally use that occasion to counterclaim for the debt I owe them? In that case, suing them would just be a big waste of time. If and when I file for BK, I can see how good an idea it is to sue them per occurrence, but can suing them work with the "just do nothing" method? I mean, if they just keep robotically violating the FDCPA (I've got Mann Bracken too), it doesn't even stop the calls and letters.

How likely is it that these guys ever actually sue me? Due to the amounts, they can't use small claims court, and I don't intend to waste time and effort contesting the facts in district court--I'll just use whatver mail-in delaying tactics I can. I would assume they'd search for assets (I have none) before taking on the expense of superior court, so the only benefit a judgment would provide them is the ability to garnish my wages (small) and levy my bank account (zero). So how long, generally speaking, do they delay before obtaining judgments?

BTW, does the SOL date from the last time I made a payment? Or the first time the cc company demanded money that I didn't respond to (my first unpaid statement)? Or is it some later date, such as the first time they demanded payment in full?

[CPO]

Thanks for the great info. Regarding the phone company/police method, I was thinking that their signature accepting my cease and desist letter would be enough to show the phone company that any subsequent call is harrassment/illegal. I realize the police are useless, but I know the phone company requires a police report number before they'll put a trap on your line. The phone company's method is to simply contact the caller, which is enough to scare ordinary citizens away from calling you again. I'm just wondering if this actually works for debt collectors because this method is pretty inconvenient, kind of embarrassing, and AT&T is one of my creditors!

The FTC complaint process looks easy enough, but I think it's clear that complaints merely go into their statistics until they accumulate enough (and have the funding) to go after the most egregious abusers. I'm happy to do my civic duty and contribute to the FTC's efforts, but it appears clear this isn't a practical method to stop the calls.

The NACA looks really good. I found a boatload of attorneys in my area, some of whom list their experience with debt collection as "Advanced." It would be wonderful to have one person on my side whose confidentiality I can trust, but before I go and make demands on these excellent people's time, I'd like to make sure I'm not wasting it and taking away from resources needed by others. Since I'm judgment proof, the "just do nothing" method has to be the standard against which I measure any other plan, so I'd like to clarify some things.

If I coordinate with an advocate to sue for each violation of the FDCPA, wouldn't the debt collector naturally use that occasion to counterclaim for the debt I owe them? In that case, suing them would just be a big waste of time. If and when I file for BK, I can see how good an idea it is to sue them per occurrence, but can suing them work with the "just do nothing" method? I mean, if they just keep robotically violating the FDCPA (I've got Mann Bracken too), it doesn't even stop the calls and letters.

One claim has nothing to do with the other. You are suing the collector for violations of federal law. The fact that you "may" owe money to the original creditor has nothing to do with willful violations of the FDCPA by the collector. The collector will have to sue you seperately after a period of discovery. You must be served and appear before the court for your indebtedness. Has nothing to do with a collectors willful violation of law.

How likely is it that these guys ever actually sue me? Due to the amounts, they can't use small claims court, and I don't intend to waste time and effort contesting the facts in district court--I'll just use whatver mail-in delaying tactics I can. I would assume they'd search for assets (I have none) before taking on the expense of superior court, so the only benefit a judgment would provide them is the ability to garnish my wages (small) and levy my bank account (zero). So how long, generally speaking, do they delay before obtaining judgments?

No one can claim to know how long a collector or creditor will wait before suit or if they even will sue at all. The amount they sue over seems to have little to due with the actual filing of a lawsuit, however it seems logical that if you owe large sums of money and you have significant assts that can be located then a lawsuit seems probable. In the debt world, it is suprising how few people are actually sued. If your truly broke, what good is a lawsuit. You still can't pay. Lawyers are not cheap, seems most collectors/creditors would want to recoup their investment by using lawsuits for "sure thing" judgments. Most consumers can file BK and have judgements vacated, so what was the purpose of suing in the first place?

For your purposes, all you need to know is that collectors have money, laws are passed and enforced to protect you, the consumer. Willful violation of the law has consequences. Those consequences include fines and damages to those abused.

The fact that you may owe money is irrelevent to the violation of the FDCPA.

BTW, does the SOL date from the last time I made a payment? Or the first time the cc company demanded money that I didn't respond to (my first unpaid statement)? Or is it some later date, such as the first time they demanded payment in full?

SOL varies from state to state. I believe that most SOL's are figured from the last activity on the account, but you must verfiy that with your state laws.

I guess my point is that the only reason these collectors violate the law is that they get away with it. For little effort you can get your "pound of flesh" for the harassment if you feel like making the effort.

Regards,

CPO

[treehugger1]

Don't be so sure that a collector will "counter-sue" you in a district court. They either have to file their "answer" or whatever with your district court. Depending upon where you live, big city or the boonies, they might not even bother. Of course your advocacy attorney might not get any money out of them when you are granted monies due to violations, but you do gain more time reaching the SOL. you say you are judgment proof, so I assume you do not have any wages, unless you live in a non-garnishment state and have no real property (i.e. Texas) then wages cannot be garnished. As you travel down this path be careful that you have no open bank accounts that can be discovered.

You obviously don't care about yoru credit reports/scores so I would wait them out and see what happens. In the meantime, get a consumer advocacy attorney on your side and sue the sh*t out of them. Generally, there is no cost to you. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[GoingDown]

Definitely get a telephone recorder and start recording their violations. I have only had one collection agency continue to call me after receiving a cease and desist letter by certified mail, and as soon as I started making it obvious that I was recording their telephone calls, they stopped calling.

I say the following when I start recording a telephone call: "Hello, my name is 'Going Down', and who am I speaking to? [their response] Okay, today's date is July XX, 2007, and the time is 12:10 p.m. Arizona Time. I am recording this telephone call for violations of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, and I intend to use the information in this telephone for a lawsuit against you and your collection agency...."

They usually hang up after that point, and most of them never call again if they have already received a cease and desist letter by certified mail.

It's amazing how different they act when they know their telephone conversation is being recorded.

[IOIOIO]

OK, using naca.net I called a few lawyers. One had a lot of good advice, but zero experience with this kind of case, even though naca.net listed them as "advanced." Despite 40 years of consumer class action experience, he didn't want to do this kind of individual case on contingency. I left messages with two other lawyers, then I got through to a third one in my area, who is interested, but obviously only if there's payment for him at the end of the line, which he understands can't come from me. He's looking into Mann Bracken and West Asset Management to determine the likelihood of getting money out of them for obvious violations, but ultimately this kind of case might not be worth his while either since the statutory damages have been limited to $1000 for the last thirty years. He's getting back to me next week. I'm now keeping a diary of all violations so that he'll have enough to sue for to make it worthwhile, but who knows if this will be enough. He also suggested I record my phone calls with the debt collectors, but since I have to inform them I'm recording that may not be worth the trouble or be any more valuable than my diary. We'll see how it goes.

I just read GoingDown's recording advice above. Maybe I will give that a try, whether the lawyer takes the case or not.

[JRScott]

It is 1000 dollars per violation I think. So each call is a separate violation