Boy,I have to admit I'm not feeling very confident about this at all...

[9877donna]

I'm filing a Chapter 7 pro se and I have to say I'm not very confident about this 'household' income requirement.Let me explain what I did:
There are 3 of us in this household.The other 2 occupants own the home,not me.I just rent a room.So here's what I did: On Schedule I in the column marked 'other monthly income' show's the amount the other 2 occupants put toward monthly expenses and my monthly income of course.On Schedule J I put the total expenditures of all 3 occupants.Both total monthly Income and total monthly expenses came out to be the same.
Does all this sound right?? Anybody?

P.S. And yes I have bought the NOLO book (Updated version) and it does NOT address this 'household' question at all....

[jbr12]

I have some questions about this as well. I live with my fiance and 17 month old daughter. My fiance goes to school and barely works part time. She works enough to pay for her bills and thats about it. All household income comes from my paychecks.

One lawyer I spoke with said don't bother putting her on the other monthly income, because she doesnt contribute to any of our expenses. She only contributes to her own. Is this correct? Even if she doesn't help for things like insurance, electric, rent, should I include her or just act like I live alone?

[9877donna]

From what I've read and researched the term 'household' refers to 'any other entity that contributes to the expenses of the household'.It sounds like the lawyer was correct.Please be aware this is only my limited knowledge of this subject and not to be taken as legal advice.
As you can see I'm having my own problems gropling with this 'household' income issue.

[poorme]

Frankly, I think you should file as an individual and leave the other two out of it. You don't own the home, so it can't be taken from you. You're just a renter with normal rent. You have a car (I presume), some personal posessions, and some bills. To me, the literal interpretation of 'household' is, in this context, intended for those who are families, married spouses, etc. and are all jointly in the deal together. There are many here who live with a fiance/so/friend and have filed independently of their others. Keep it simple.

[9877donna]

I would love to keep it simple...

Frankly, I think you should file as an individual and leave the other two out of it. You don't own the home, so it can't be taken from you. You're just a renter with normal rent. You have a car (I presume), some personal posessions, and some bills. To me, the literal interpretation of 'household' is, in this context, intended for those who are families, married spouses, etc. and are all jointly in the deal together. There are many here who live with a fiance/so/friend and have filed independently of their others. Keep it simple.

poorme,thank you for jumping in to help.I know.It's so hard to decide what to do.If I don't put down the other 2 household occupants and the trustee asks if someone else contributes to the household income/expenses he'll wonder why it was not stated in my petition/Means Test.
I just don't want to mess this up.

[SinkingFast]

We're in a similar situation. We have an adult Son living at home, going to college full time and working part time. All of son's money goes to pay his tuition, books, fees, and education related expenses.

If you wanted to consider any of his money as part of the household, it would be what he spends for gas and lunches when he eats out. He doesn't pay us rent, does not contribute to the utilities, or food, or any other "Household" expense. We own the car he drives and we pay for his car insurance and repairs.

BUT, our attny is adding son's income into ours for filing BK.

I sure wish someone would sort all of this out and decide what's right and what's not.

[poorme]

I'm not trying to make this complicated, Lord knows I went through personal turmoil for a long time before we filed. I look at it this way donna - if the trustee asked me about other household income that I had access to, my answer would sound like this: " You see, I live as a renter with two other people who own the house. If anything, I'm contributing to THEIR well being...not them to me. We share utilities, food, and other household expenses equally as cohabitants, but I'm the one who is filing - not them. I get nothing in return except a roof. They don't pay my bills." I would put it to the attorney that way and get his/her opinion on that stance. Seems to me to do otherwise is weakening your position.

Sinking has the familial connection I mentioned because of his son, it's more natural to expect that a child does contribute to the family's means than a group of unrelated adults who are sharing living space.

Tough call - anyone else have thoughts?

[monlyba]

i also live with my boyfriend and daughter. he pays almost all our bills. i earn a small amount of money from babysitting so i help out a bit, but it's like 90% him who pays the necessities like rent and utilities. i guess i'm going to have to include his info since it would look mighty fishy on paper since they'd know i am not living alone on my $600/month income! but i lived with 3 roommates a couple years ago so i know how that goes... an attorney i met with recently said even roommates have to be included for that first part. but i personally would probably leave them out just to avoid confusion and complication.

[9877donna]

I feel more comfortable putting 'roommates' on my petition....

If I put their income on the 'Means Test' then I also have to put what they contribute to the household expenses on my current income of individual debtor and put down the total of everything we go in on on the current expenditures of individual debtor.Like I said in my original post both cancel each other out...sort of speak.(The income and expenditures are the same amount.)
You know I don't want to make it complicated either but I DO want to get it right.To be honest,I would rather have them on there than not.My papers are already to go and I'm going to file them with the 'roommates' income and contributions on my petition.Better to be safe than sorry.I really appreciate everyone's feedback and comments but the more I think about it the more 'secure' I would feel going into the 341 meeting with the 'whole' household on my paperwork.I'd rather 'overstate' than 'understate' my situation.
Donna

[InLimbo]

We're in a similar situation. We have an adult Son living at home, going to college full time and working part time. All of son's money goes to pay his tuition, books, fees, and education related expenses.

If you wanted to consider any of his money as part of the household, it would be what he spends for gas and lunches when he eats out. He doesn't pay us rent, does not contribute to the utilities, or food, or any other "Household" expense. We own the car he drives and we pay for his car insurance and repairs.

BUT, our attny is adding son's income into ours for filing BK.

I sure wish someone would sort all of this out and decide what's right and what's not.

SinkingFast, so your attorney is including your son's income?? Our situation is similiar to yours as our 19 year old daughter is going to community college and she lives at home also. She works a part-time job also but does not contribute to anything but paying her gas and eating expenses at school. We pay her tuition and books and all living expenses. We told our lawyer about her part-time job and he is NOT adding her income to ours. He didn't even blink a eye at it actually So, now I am confused as why your son's income has to be included, especially if he doesn't contribute to the household expenses.

[9877donna]

SinkingFast, so your attorney is including your son's income?? Our situation is similiar to yours as our 19 year old daughter is going to community college and she lives at home also. She works a part-time job also but does not contribute to anything but paying her gas and eating expenses at school. We pay her tuition and books and all living expenses. We told our lawyer about her part-time job and he is NOT adding her income to ours. He didn't even blink a eye at it actually So, now I am confused as why your son's income has to be included, especially if he doesn't contribute to the household expenses.

This issue of 'household' income seems to be confusing everyone including lawyers.That part of the Bankrupcty law is so poorly written that it's hard to interprit what they want exactly.I say go with whatever you are comfortable with but anyone with immediate family members living with them should include their income even if it is just 'part-time'.Just My Opinion and certainly NOT legal advice.

[9877donna]

Wow,Look at what I just found on another website...

Read This!

Family size" is defined as the debtor(s), the debtor's spouse (unless the spouses are separated and a joint petition is not being filed), and any dependents listed on Schedule I.

Here's the website I found this information on:

https://www.uscourts.gov/bankruptcycourts/jcusguidelines.html

It's under paragraph II/No 4

[Minnymouth]

The petition calls for "family", spouse, children - not room-mates, friends, soon-to-be's, a "buddy" , aunts and uncles, etc.........

You list only yours expenses, your income......

Have information gathered to the side as to what the others may contribute to the situation. So that you can provide ad prove this info....

If you are a rentor - YOU ARE A RENTOR - not a homeowner....... You pay a flat rate or flat rate plus utitlities...... (and even then a portion of that)......

Only list your income, your expenses....

[poorme]

Thanks Minny - that's basically what I was saying, too. I guess the lesson for us all is that a JD degree does not a good lawyer make. It helps to ask the lawyers the tough questions, sometimes you can determine they're not as experienced as they'd like to be...that's from only handling the 'easy' straightforward cases. Oh yeah - the old adage that a 2nd opinion doesn't hurt is also true.

[jbr12]

If by adding my fiance to the list, I am still considerably under the means test, should I just do it anyway? I mean, if it keeps me 2-3 under the limits, wouldn't it be better to include it than not include it?