quick pro se question

[miss puff]

Hi yall! I think we have decided to try and file Pro Se. Every time we try and scrimp and save the money for the attorney, something comes up! I have been doing tons of reading on the forums, bought the Nolo book and have been penciling in all the answers on the sample pages in the book. My question is: When we actually file, do we file with just the Form 1 and then all the paperwork goes in at the court date or 341 meeting for the trustee or do we have to have ALL of the paperwork completed on the day we file. Thanks in advance for your response.

[keepmine]

All the forms need to be submited at filing. The exeption is a skeleton filing done in an emergency. You provide some basic info and the list of creditors but, must have all of the forms filed within 15 days. {I think that's the time frame}

[so-beyond-broke]

I filed pro-se back in April and I filed all of the paperwork including the pre-bk certificate. If you are reaffirming any debts, download the proper forms from your local bk court and have the person that you are reaffirming the debt fill them out. I wanted to reaffirm my car loan, so I mailed the reaffirmation agreement to the bank and then they sent it to the bk court where I filed my case. Whether you are pro-se or not, you will need to take the pre-discharge debt education course and file that certificate with the court only after you filed your other papers. In my local court you have within 45 days after the 341 meeting to file this certificate or you won't receive your discharge.

Good Luck
sbb

Hi yall! I think we have decided to try and file Pro Se. Every time we try and scrimp and save the money for the attorney, something comes up! I have been doing tons of reading on the forums, bought the Nolo book and have been penciling in all the answers on the sample pages in the book. My question is: When we actually file, do we file with just the Form 1 and then all the paperwork goes in at the court date or 341 meeting for the trustee or do we have to have ALL of the paperwork completed on the day we file. Thanks in advance for your response.

[djk]

the only thing I did not include with the petition at time of filing was the tax return for 2005 because I had not filed it with the IRS. I actually never did file the tax return before my 341, I just sent the trustee a copy of the filled out return to
substantiate the tax situation for 2005. I think you would be better off to include as much documentation as possible, even leaning to overkill, when you file. It will give the trustee a better snapshot of your situation. Good luck.

[miss puff]

If you are reaffirming any debts, download the proper forms from your local bk court and have the person that you are reaffirming the debt fill them out. I wanted to reaffirm my car loan, so I mailed the reaffirmation agreement to the bank and then they sent it to the bk court where I filed my case.

Thanks SBB and Keepmine! So, should I send the reaffirmation agreements to my creditors (house) AFTER I submit my papers to the court and receive some type of BK case number? How will I know if they return them that the courts got them?

Also, I went onto my states BK site and all the documents are there for downloading. However, they are in Adobe and I am not a computer genius and can't figure out how the heck to type in the information. Do you know if there is a way to do this, or, should I handwrite everything out?

[LostOne0069]

You'll have to write it out as you can't edit an Adobe Acrobat file without the full version of Adobe Acrobat professional.... which is about $400.... and you still probably wouldn't be able to edit the docs as they're probably protected.

You could always find a typewriter somewhere I guess....

[djk]

there are editable forms on the trustee site, you print them out. you can not save them. but after you print them out you can make a copy.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/defs/index.htm#uscourts

[so-beyond-broke]

Hi Miss Puff

I would wait until after you file your bk paperwork with the court before handling the reaffirmation forms. When I first filed bk, I tried to include the reaffirmation paperwork too, but the clerk said that I would need to contact the creditor directly. So the first time I mailed the agreement the bank signed off on it, but forgot to date it and stamp it, so I had to mail it back to them a second time before they got it right. Since they returned it promptly the first time around, I got a bit worried when the reaffirmation agreement didn't come back to me. It wasn't until I checked PACER did I discover that the bank who I wanted to keep my car loan with, had went ahead and sent the agreement to the bank. So now since I filed bk, I will have a hearing before the judge on Monday regarding this agreement.

As for the forms, I did a combination of both. I printed out a set of bk forms from the trustee website as well as the forms that my local court required. I went to Staples and made copies. I used a set as a "skelton" or practice for when I would do the real paperwork. So one afternoon, I dragged out my old electric typewritter and typed in the forms. I used the PDF files that you can type in only (but not save) for my schedule B and C because I realized I made an error on the other typewritten ones and didn't have time to do it by typewritter again. Those PDF forms are ok, but like they can't be saved, so you need to be sure that before you print it from your computer that everything is ok. I am from NY and you are allowed to handwrite your information provided that its legible. It was a real pain to type all day, but let me tell you it felt good not to have to fork over $400 to pay someone else to do it. I have a We the People 5 blocks from my house and that what they wanted and they can't offer any legal advice. I couldn't afford a lawyer, or any one to prepare my paperwork. I barely got by to gather the $299 bk fee paid in full to avoid having to ask for a payment plan.

sbb

Thanks SBB and Keepmine! So, should I send the reaffirmation agreements to my creditors (house) AFTER I submit my papers to the court and receive some type of BK case number? How will I know if they return them that the courts got them?

Also, I went onto my states BK site and all the documents are there for downloading. However, they are in Adobe and I am not a computer genius and can't figure out how the heck to type in the information. Do you know if there is a way to do this, or, should I handwrite everything out?

[anonymuse]

there are editable forms on the trustee site, you print them out. you can not save them. but after you print them out you can make a copy.
http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/d...x.htm#uscourts

Get a trial of CutePDF and you will be able to fill them in.

[Minnymouth]

Just a thought,

If you are unsure of your petition, let a paralegal check it over for you... small fee....... before you file it......

Also any reaffirms, double check to make sure the companies do file it with the Court before your discharge date......

[miss puff]

Allrighty, I have started typing in the information for filing my papers. My goal is to file sometime early this week (Tuesday). I have a couple of questions I am hoping someone can clarify for me.

1-On Schedule J: Current Expenditures of individual debtors-I DO NOT list a car apyment that I am going to discharge in bankrupcty-Is this correct?

2-On Schedule I: Current income of individual debtors- Do I put a 401K loan repay under payroll deductions? Also, we did do a hardship withdrawl on it to save the house and I don't know where to put this as well. I would have to assume that it would be some type of income-would it go under pensions?

Thanks so much all for all your help. I don't know how I would have gotten all this done without the support you all give.

I thought I had one more question but can't think of it now...hmmmm......Oh well-I am sure I will think of it at some point. thanks again

[SinkingFast]

#1. Correct. If you're gonna discharge it, you do not include it. J is for what your living expenses will be AFTER filing BK.

#2. Dunno for sure. Did you take out the money within the last 6 months prior to filing BK. If so, it might be considered "earned" income. Maybe someone with experience here will chime in.

We had cashed out Hubby's Retirement IRA to pay off the 2nd on our house. But that was nearly a year before we ever Consulted with an attny. None of the attnys said a word about it beyond asking when we cashed out. Once they heard it had been so long before, they didn't say anything else about it.

[anonymuse]

I think the loan repayment would be different than the hardship withdrawl. Those hardship withdrawls still come with a big penalty on the taxes, so in IRS terms they seem like some kind of earned income.

I'm sure someone here will be more well versed in this area to help you with your questions.

I would hope the trustees think kindly of people taking from their 401Ks since then they know that people weren't looking and planning for BK ahead of time. Since some people (me included) didn't know ahead of time that 401Ks couldn't be taken away under BK.

[lrprn]

2-On Schedule I: Current income of individual debtors- Do I put a 401K loan repay under payroll deductions? Also, we did do a hardship withdrawl on it to save the house and I don't know where to put this as well. I would have to assume that it would be some type of income-would it go under pensions?

Repayment of retirement loans can be tricky in bankruptcy. Some trustees and judges say that repayment of retirement loans is making a preferential payment to yourself over the rest of your creditors and try to stop repayment. Others say it's ok but hold you to a maximum % set by local custom (ours is 5% of gross income each). Are you continuing to make retirement contributions currently as well?

My husband took out six loans against his retirement trying to keep us afloat to no avail. We filed Ch 13 seven weeks ago - I'm glad to share how the loans are captured on our bk forms, but since our trustee has objected to our plan saying our retirement loan repayments combined with our current retirement contributions are too high, sorry to say I'm not the most reliable person to give solid advice about this at the moment .

[miss puff]

Thanks for the replies!

We currently are not contributing to my husbands 401K because if you take out a hardship withdrawl-they penalize you for 6 months and won't let you contribute.

I ended up putting the hardship withdrawl in the statement of financial affairs, line 2 (other income). Hopefully that's the right place.

I put my husbands 401 payback on Schedule I (current income). If they take it out, we have enough wiggle room to be within $100. Is it normal to have more expenses than income when figuring out income vs expenses?