Ex Filed - Child Support - Michigan - Have ?'s

[DesdemonaB14]

Hi All

It's been awhile since I posted 2010ish - couldn't remember my log on so now I'm DesdemonaB14. Couple of quick questions regarding ex-husband and his recent BK filing:

He filed 11.6.2014 - we have NO combined debt, what was mine was mine what was his is his - so this is strictly regarding our open child support order.

We appeared in front of the Friend of the Court referee on 10.30.2014 for our 3 year review - the order increased over 500 per month which explains why he didn't even bat an eye over the increase. At the meeting I brought up the fact he owed 2 months of child care for our youngest. The FOC referee agreed that he owed the amount and asked if he wanted rolled in to the November order. He responded "No, I will pay her directly, in cash." All of this was under oath. One week later I received the BK notice, I feel the SOB never intend to pay me. So here are my questions:

Does what he did violate any BK rules for fraud?

It is my understanding that debts of "nature of support" are non-dischargeable, the bill in question is for September and October child care - I know he has to list all debts - but is particular one non-dischargeable?

If it is non-dischargeable - I have the right to attempt collection correct because of the nature of the debt (Child Support) - correct?

My new child support order went into effect 11.1.2014 - I received two small payments from Friend of the Court on 11.3.2014 and 11.5.2014 but is an outstanding balance of +500 that I haven't yet to receive. I usually receive the full about due by the 10th of the month, it's now the 17th and I checked the FOC website and it still shows has amount due - no notes on the BK. Does anyone know if FOC is holding the payment due because of the BK being filed? If so how long before payments resume?

Last one: Anyone attend their ex's BK 341 meeting?

I am waiting my activation code for Pacer so I can look at the complete filing, the suspense is killing me.

DesdemonaB14

[DesdemonaB14]

Hi All

So I got my PACER log-in and view the documents -
He is claiming a higher child support amount - about 300 more then what he pays.

He also is claiming monthly child care of 340 - that he is not obligated to pay out of pocket. All child care comes from the FOC support order.

He did not list his back child care that he owes from Sept and Oct. Under schedule E he has me list as receiving child support but 0.00 for value - would this be where he would put the back child care?

If he puts the correct amounts in this changes his net income from a negative to positive by over 600 - isn't this fraud?

[LadyInTheRed]

Hi, Desdemona!

Where is he claiming higher child support, on the means test or on Schedule J? Schedule J is forward looking, so if it is reasonable to assume child support will increase in the next 5 years, having a higher amount on that schedule could be justified.

It sounds to me like what your husband owes you is non-dischargeable support. But, I would consult with an attorney to be sure, to find out if you need to file a complaint to get an order to confirm that and to make sure you do everything that you need to do to protect your rights.

Here is some information on child support and bankruptcy: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ankruptcy.html According to that page, the automatic stay does not apply to child support, as long as you do not try to collect against property of the BK estate (i.e., not exempt assets)

I wouldn't worry about whether his filing is fraudulent unless an attorney tells you that your ability to collect will be jeopardized because of the inaccuracies in his petition or that you have a legal obligation to bring inaccuracies to the attention of the court. Unless he owes you significant dischargeable debt, it is in your best interest for him to get a Chap 7 discharge so that he is better able to pay the child support. Accusing him of filing a fraudulent petition will jeopardize his ability to get a discharge. Focus on protecting your rights to payments on his existing debt to you, including filing a proof of claim if his case is an asset case.

[DesdemonaB14]

Hey Lady

On the means test he put the prior order amount 400 - on the Schedule J form he put the incorrect amount of 1200

In September we got paperwork from FOC in regards to our 3 year review - he failed to submit any paperwork to FOC and they called his employer got his salary info and calculated the proposed order based on what I submitted and what his employer provided. At the referee meeting the amount was lowered by 260 dollars, as for the 5-year look forward his amount would not increase it would decease as our youngest will be out of after school care program as well both girls will not attend full time summer camp.

He also included child care cost of 339 per month on Schedule J - he is no long obligated to pay out of pocket child care all child care for our youngest daughter (9) comes from the FOC order. So unless he is paying 340 in babysitting - he is double dipping on the child care. On the means test he claimed over 700 per month (average) for child care costs. I did the math - he is claiming both girls on the means test - per our divorce agreement we split child care 50/50 one child per parent.

He also did not include his parents on the petition - they paid his mortgage for three years, this is not the first time he as lied on papers submitted to a court. On our first round with FOC he failed to submit the "rent" his ex-gf was paying him while she lived there. When the referee asked him about it - he replied "I didn't think you would count that as income." The death glare he received was priceless.

As for his ability to pay after the BK - he makes 30K more a year then I do, will be debt free if he can't make CS payment then he as a serious problem.

[LadyInTheRed]

As far as I know, a creditor is not obligated to investigate a debtor's petition for fraud. That's the trustee's job. I don't know whether you have any obligation to report his fraud if you suspect it. That's a question for an attorney.

Is it really out of the realm of possibility that he is paying $340 a month for babysitting?

He sounds like he has no problem lying to pay as little child support as he can. IMO, he's scum. You should not let him get away with lies that affect you. The question I think you should worry about right now is: Do the lies you suspect on his BK petition affect you?

As for his ability to pay after the BK - he makes 30K more a year then I do, will be debt free if he can't make CS payment then he as a serious problem.

That's the point I was trying to make. Unless he owes you significant dischargeable debt, it is not in your best interest for him to be denied a discharge. Unless there is a legal obligation to tell the court you suspect fraud, I'd keep my mouth shut because it will be easier for him to pay child support after he gets a discharge.

I suggest you consult with a BK attorney to make sure your rights as a creditor are adequately protected.

As far as the payments from FOC, contact them and ask why you haven't received the full amount. It sounds like they received the payment before he filed BK. So, I don't think they would be part of the BK estate.

[DesdemonaB14]

So Lady - you have given me a lot to think about (keep me up most of the night).

340 in babysitting - no not possible he only has them 30% of his time at that amount he would have a babysitter there when he's there. Plus he has is ex-gf currently couch surfing (personal I believe she only came back because he filed, no debt = more money to spend on her) so she has been "living" there rent free that = free babysitting.

I don't think he is trying to pay as little support as he can NOW - three years YES he was trying to pay a little as possible. I reviewed our FOC orders and the monthly salary the FOC calculated for him is 300 higher then his BK petition and his monthly deductions are higher then what he is claiming on the BK filing. But it's my belief that he allowed it so he could make his numbers for the BK filing.


Re-reading the petition again the only thing that sticks out is the child support issue. Reading the Schedule J it says list expenses as of the date of BK filing - we had our meeting one week prior he knew that he was not long responsible for any before/after school care or summer camps for both girls - he choose to withhold this information, he knew what his adjusted support order was the day he filed he choose not to reduce it. If he imputed the correct amounts his schedule J would be in the (+) not the (-). He did the same thing during the divorce and 1st round of child support, he withheld information or fudged the numbers in his favor.

It is my belief that he will be an asset case as he has two vehicles (paid for) as will the value of the house has risen in the last two years it could be sold above what he owes and he can walk away clean. Plus he claims a 3K tax refund (if he is lying this much on a FOC and BK petition image what his taxes are like) there is no wildcard in MI so tax refunds are up for grabs. I should know my trustee took mine and it was 1500 dollars.

So I believe I will submit to his lawyer his past due child care bill, as well as a copy of the current FOC order showing the correct amounts. Let the ex get "yelled at" by his lawyer - because I firmly believe the blame lies on my ex for not disclosing this information to his lawyer.

Maybe I can get some sleep tonight.

[DesdemonaB14]

Good news - I just checked FOC release a portion of this months CS - not the full amount but enough to get me thru the remainder of this month.

[LadyInTheRed]

Glad to hear you got some more cash!

I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by contacting your ex's attorney other than to get him yelled at. That won't do you or your children any good. Stop thinking of this as your ex-husband's bankruptcy. Think of it as a bankruptcy by some guy who owes you money. Your anger for your ex will not help.

He listed you on Schedule E as a holder of a priority claim. It doesn't really matter that he said the amount owed to you is zero. His attorney is not going to amend the petition to change that. Is there a deadline to file a proof of claim on the Notice to Creditor's? If so, file a claim. If not and his case is declared an asset case, then you will get a notice giving you a deadline to file a proof of claim. You will then file proof of claim with the amount he owed you on the date he filed the petition. If he doesn't object to your claim, it is deemed "approved" and you wait for the trustee to liquidate assets and send you a check.

Stop worrying about what he put on Schedule J. That does not affect your rights as the holder of a non-dischargeable priority claim (assuming it is in fact non-dischargeable support).

Are you aware of any assets that he did not list on Schedules A and B? If so, then you might want to write a letter to his attorney telling him that if the petition is not amended before the 341, you will inform the trustee of the assets. If the petition is not amended, you can either write a letter to the trustee or go to the 341 and ask your ex questions about his assets.

Here's some info for creditors on the Michigan Eastern District Bankruptcy court: http://www.mieb.uscourts.gov/creditors Even if you are in the Western Division, this info will apply.

[DesdemonaB14]

Hi All

So after a week deep thought I did the following: I sent his lawyer a copy of my "invoice" for the past due child care costs, a copy of the day care center statement, and copy of our divorce showing his obligation to pay 50 of the bill. I also sent his lawyer a copy of our current child support order dated 10.30.2014 showing the correct amount for the schedule J and well as a highlighting his child care costs included in the support order. I did put a sticky that says you might want to check this numbers again with your client.

This afternoon while I was out I received a text from the ex saying a check was in my front door and child support amendment has been submitted. Oh and a text war we had on Tuesday - he attempted to say that all amounts on the Schedule J are "state calculated figures my attorney came up with but accurate nevertheless" He claims that he filed BEFORE the FOC hearing so according to him he was correct - but I called him out on with a screen shot of his filing time stamp clearly showing the filing a week after our hearing.


So last question (I think) - am I allowed to cash this check?

It's under 600.00 and it is for a unsecured priority debt (Child Care) or will he or I get in trouble with the court as he has not had his 341 meeting yet it's not till 12/11.

[DesdemonaB14]

Hi All

Quick update... the ex claims that he talked to his lawyer and they submitted the "corrected" child support numbers as well as removed the 339 in child care costs, on Friday 11/28. I just check PACER and there is no additional filings after 11.8.2014, which was the BK court mailing the creditor notices. Yet another lie.

Which brings me to the check he wrote for the past due child care, I have not cashed I wanted to see if he corrected his lies, he has not. WHAT DO I DO WITH THIS CHECK? I feel this is a shut up and go away payment.

I know that if he corrects the child support number and removes the additional child care costs he will have 600 more monthly income on his schedule J - putting him in to a positive number per month (500+ per month) vs. a negative number (-100). Which leads me to believe that if he corrects his lies, he could be forced in to a CH13, which I am sure is something he does not want to do.

Once again I know that he is lying, and I can prove it and I believe paying me the past due child care is his way of shutting me up. I am 90% sure he is going to be an asset case (2 cars, 3K in tax refund) do I cash the check, and shut up? Or do the right thing and go to court and prove his lies?

[LadyInTheRed]

Cash the check! Why would you not? Who cares why he decided to pay you? You are entitled to the money and he paid it. Cash the check and move on with your life.

[justbroke]

I might make a photocopy of take a picture of the check before cashing, just for your records. Other than that, why hang on to the check???

I understand your frustration, by reading the posts here, but unless his filing is affecting your receiving payments in a negative way, I don't know why you need to personally investigate every detail on his Schedules. (It's kind of like what Lady wrote.) If this gets him out of debt and he's able to keep up with his obligations then let the Trustee deal with him. Most Trustees that I know want a copy of the divorce decree and the support order to corroborate the amounts on the forms anyhow. If the Trustee does not do their due diligence then so be it.

I would say, and repeating what Lady writes, just move on. In fact, it's probably better that he is discharging credit card and other unsecured debt so he can meet his personal obligations for support!

(Please realize that people who go through bankruptcy, and even Chapter 7s, come out with most of their property. When I filed I had 2 houses, 3 cars, all kinds of furniture, $7K tax refund, thousands upon thousands in my 401(k). The only thing I gave up was one the homes, voluntarily. For some reason, people believe that bankruptcy leaves you poor. Well, if you just keep wallowing in debt and don't file for bankruptcy, that is what leaves you penniless and without property. Filing bankruptcy fixes the income/expense issues and allows you to move forward. Just allow him to clear his deck and move forward.)