chp 7 car Reaffirmation Assest BK discharged in April & Changed mind?

[Redshirt]

When filing we reaffirmed both our cars, due to assuming we couldn't get new ones with horrible credit and no money down. Long story short we have a car loan on one of them that is actually 2 loans into one (old underwater car and new car). 2nd car is separate loan which is in good shape. We owe $28,000+ and as of today the car is worth $10,000ish. Like an idiot I thought we could sell the car eventually and just carry the difference in the loan. I never even CONSIDERED that was impossible because we wouldn't get the title until the loan is paid off. Refinance is obviously not an option which I knew beforehand. I guess we could try and get a new loan to cover the difference and try to sell the car and simultaneously pay the difference, but I went into my local credit union just to talk to them about post bk and they pretty much said see you in AT LEAST 2 years. So that would be a miracle to pull off.

Now I'm panicked.

Our loan is with Santander. We reaffirmed the debt in Dec/Jan. We had our hearing in Feb/March. Discharge letter came in late April. So I'm well past the 60 day change mind bubble. Santander has acknowledged the reaffirmation by phone but I currently have no access to my account other than by phone or requested snail mail statement (and only when requested). I've had my lawyer call (as the other car loan is completely back to normal) and they said since it is an assets case it is still open until all the creditors get their piece of the lump sum we paid. And until that happens Santander has the account on lock down. I get different stories and answers every time I call. According to the person in march our account would be restored as soon as they got a copy of the discharge, which they did by May 1st.

The car is showing up as $0 on our credit report.

So is my bankruptcy still open even though it's been discharged? Anyway we can get out of the reaffirmation? I'm current on payments and according to my first requested statement all monies are going to the balance/interest as they should. I've read about amending a bk, but it seems as if the reaffirmation has pretty much locked us in with no other options. (not much info out there about post bk and changing your mind other than 'ha ha your screwed')

I've contacted my lawyer but it's Saturday and I won't hear anything until Monday maybe.

[justbroke]

There is a difference between discharge and the administrative close. The discharge is what the debtor waits for. The administrative closing, is when the Trustee is done with administering the estate when it has assets. Since you are/were an asset case, then the Trustee must still be administering those assets of the estate.

The reaffirmation is binding once the 60 days has passed. There is no way to get around it. People have tried, but you signed back up for the debt. It's a shame because you could likely have redeemed the vehicle (under 722 Redemption) for the "current market value" of the vehicle, rather than reaffirm a vehicle that was way way underwater. In fact, I'm surprised your attorney signed the reaffirmation (s/he should have at least checked the "presumption of undue hardship" checkbox). I suppose there is a way to get out of it if that box WAS checked by your attorney AND there was no hearing on the reaffirmation.

You can't have the discharge vacated so that you can undue the reaffirmation... unless that box was checked and there was no hearing or the hardship.

Unfortunately you have learned why we never advocate reaffirming anything.

[Redshirt]

We tried the 722 Redemption and was denied. Bells should have went off then! At the time I was so concerned with including the house I didn't really put too much thought into the cars, obviously. I too am shocked the attorney let us reaffirm. She never even mentioned any of my above issues, hence the shock I got today.

I just looked at the paperwork again and the box is not checked. Ironically it says "check if 10b is less than $0" ours was $76. WTH was the attorney thinking, that's pretty close to $0?

I'm grabbing at straws here, there's a section that says
Check box as directed in part D: Debtor's Statement in support of Reaffirmation Agreement
( ) presumption of Undue Hardship
( ) No presumption of Undue Hardship

Nothing is checked. Does that mean anything or is it irrelevant.

Also they valued the car at $17,000 on the Reaffirmation and $11,000 on the bankruptcy paperwork. The reaffirmation was filed after.

Hypothetically if the reaffirmation paperwork is wrong would that be a loop hole? They had to send it to Santander twice (per Santanders request) but I'm not sure what the reason was.

I've been researching on here and see some people's reaffirmation was denied by the courts. I can't get into PACER as I just registered, is there any other way to see if it was approved?

We also signed part E saying we're not represented by an attorney in connection with the reaffirmation agreement. We obviously have an attorney. This was described as she was not 'telling us to reaffirm' at time of signing.

Unfortunately I didn't find this forum until after my bk was discharged. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I'm probably sound half crazy and really desperate. We went through hell with our house (and 2 lawyers) and got absolutely nowhere, I am dreading that is going to be the result with this car.

[justbroke]

You "could" have a cause of action to have the discharge vacated and the reaffirmation rescinded if neither box was checked. However, I'm not a practicing bankruptcy attorney and I do not know if that is true cause to vacate the discharge and rescind the reaffirmation. This is something you could discuss with your attorney.

I just found a case out of the 3rd District. In re Bazzarelli, Ruling: Reaffirmation agreement ineffective due to attorney's failure to check box on Part C and debtor's failure to complete Part D. It's from the 3rd District and I have no access to the text.

You really need to look at the Attorney's certification on Part C to see if they checked that box. If they did and there was no hearing, then you may have an opening. Again, you should talk to your attorney about this.

[Redshirt]

Thank you again!! I will be talking to my Attorney hopefully tomorrow. I found all this out Saturday which is why I have 20 questions and no chance to talk to the Attorney yet.

I just looked at part C and it is completely blank. (no checked box & no attorney name and no signature) They may have filled it in before they faxed it, but I do not have a copy with anything signed by her.

Lots of question for the attorney tomorrow as the more I look at the paperwork for the reaffirmation the more things I notice.

Thank you for finding the case in the 3rd district, I will look into that more!

[LadyInTheRed]

If you weren't represented by your attorney for purposes of the reaffirmation agreement then I assume there was no certification by your attorney that reaffirmation was not an undue hardship. In that case, the court would have had to approve the reaffirmation. Your attorney should easily be able to tell you if the court approved the reaffirmation. You could also go to the court to look up your case.

[Redshirt]

Got a call back from my attorney this afternoon with fantastic news for the current situation. The judge never signed the reaffirmation! She called the loan company as soon as she got the okay from me, and they are going to take the car as a voluntary repossession. As of right now the car is showing up as a $0 balance on my credit report and that's it. The debt is so huge I'm not bothered if it hurts my credit rating either way. But the scary thought is, what if we never went this route! We would have found this out when we tried to sell/trade the car eventually. I've read stories on here where that has happened. While you don't owe the debt it still stings that you made payments loyally for nothing.

My final question:
Speaking of payment, I read on here that someone was going to try and get payments back after a messed up reaffirmation? Any truth to that being possible? Honestly I'm just happy to be done with it, but doesn't hurt to ask.

I just want to thank you guys again for responding. You got me through the weekend without going insane and gave me hope. I truly appreciate it.

[AngelinaCat]

That is GREAT news! Now, get all of your possessions out of the vehicle and take pictures of it all around, both inside and out. On the day you do this, put a copy of the day's newspaper on the windshield--even if you have to go buy one. Put the paper on your windshield with the front page, banner and date plainly visible in the picture. This is your 'time-stamp.'

Have the person picking the vehicle up do a walk-around with you, and a clip-board, and list on your paper any dings or scratches inside and out, and general overall condition. Have the person picking the vehicle up, sign that paper as your receipt. All of this precaution will help protect you in the unlikely event that something happens to the car once it is out of your possession and the lender tries to blame you for it.

[Redshirt]

That is GREAT news! Now, get all of your possessions out of the vehicle and take pictures of it all around, both inside and out. On the day you do this, put a copy of the day's newspaper on the windshield--even if you have to go buy one. Put the paper on your windshield with the front page, banner and date plainly visible in the picture. This is your 'time-stamp.'

Have the person picking the vehicle up do a walk-around with you, and a clip-board, and list on your paper any dings or scratches inside and out, and general overall condition. Have the person picking the vehicle up, sign that paper as your receipt. All of this precaution will help protect you in the unlikely event that something happens to the car once it is out of your possession and the lender tries to blame you for it.

You're a genius!! I would have never thought to do the newspaper thing! I can't thank you enough for the tips! I will do everything you said

[Redshirt]

Santander officially picked up the car yesterday. Well at least a tow truck did. I took pictures with the newspaper on my phone (to time stamp the pictures, as well as emailed them to someone from my phone) and with a camera. Had the tow truck driver sign a letter stating that the car is in good condition and as pictured.

Getting Santander to take the car was a headache. They told my attorney that I had to request it in writing. So I called to get the address to send it to and they said they can do it over the phone and will record the conversation. Did that and then a week later hadn't heard anything. So called back and they said they need me to sign a form that they can mail or email. Signed via email and got a response saying it will be reviewed. That was 2 days ago. Heard nothing else from Santander since. So glad this is all done!

[ellis2156]

If my car was not reaffirmed and I want to get another car can it be traded and have the new dealer pay it off?

[justbroke]

If my car was not reaffirmed and I want to get another car can it be traded and have the new dealer pay it off?

Yes. Just beware of some dealer financing. We have heard from one other BKforum member that had trouble with a non-reaffirmed car. Just shop the rates and find the best for you.

[bcohen]

If my car was not reaffirmed and I want to get another car can it be traded and have the new dealer pay it off?

If the car was not reaffirmed, and you still owe significant money on the loan, why on Earth would you trade it in and "have the new dealer pay it off"? That just means you would be adding the debt on the old car--which you have discharged to the new loan--which you are liable for. A better course of action would be to quit paying, drive the car until your lender repo's it, and then buy a new one WITHOUT a trade-in. (By law, a repossession after discharge CANNOT be reported on your credit reports, and therefore will not harm your chances of buying another car.)

[LadyInTheRed]

If the car was not reaffirmed, and you still owe significant money on the loan, why on Earth would you trade it in and "have the new dealer pay it off"? That just means you would be adding the debt on the old car--which you have discharged to the new loan--which you are liable for. A better course of action would be to quit paying, drive the car until your lender repo's it, and then buy a new one WITHOUT a trade-in. (By law, a repossession after discharge CANNOT be reported on your credit reports, and therefore will not harm your chances of buying another car.)

Maybe there is some equity in the car.