Do I list unused airline tickets and pre-paid rent as assets?

[Pjmax]

LIR, thank you for the explanation.

[LadyInTheRed]

LIR, thank you for the explanation.

Your welcome. Please re-read the edited version of my post. I am not confident of what I originally posted and edited it shortly before you posted again.

[ksgirl38]

Ha!

There were purchased as Christmas gifts for my family. Since I live abroad, they make convenient gifts.

I was anticipating returning stateside for Christmas in 2012, and purchased them accordingly; but my circumstances changed, and I will be visiting this coming summer.

As I'll be in SF for a couple weeks, if I file then, at that time I will still be in possession of the cards; since I will be visiting my family in Ohio and Texas, and distributing the gifts cards, shortly after I file.

I'm not looking for trouble, HMM! =)

Were they bought in small increments over a longer period of time, or all at once? How long ago did you purchase them?

[sailing2013]

KS,

Thanks for your interest. They were all purchased in November. At that time, I was planning on returning to the States for Christmas. Most of the amounts are around $200. Since I only see my family every other year, a $200 gift card for missed birthdays, two Christmases, graduations, etc., doesn't seem excessive to me; though I can see how it might arouse suspicions. The gifts are for my nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, parents, etc.

I certainly see The Lady's point--that I should examine my spending patterns. When I made the purchases, BK hadn't even entered my mind; I was more concerned about seeing my family, and, well, to be honest, I didn't want to be seen as cheap or broke, showing up empty handed at Christmas after being away for two years.

That said, as I had mentioned previously, as soon as I entertained the possibility of BK, I stopped cold using my cards.

Funny how something so honest and heartfelt--like buying presents for family members--can be construed as a malicious intent to deceive!

[goon]

Sorry to take the thread ever so slightly off target, but I think this is relevant...

I could have sworn that I have seen advice given here (and other places) on more than one occasion that purchasing gift cards for grocery stores was considered legitimate BK pre-planning..... now maybe I am mistaken, maybe someone gave bad information, or maybe that is different as that ends up being considered "groceries" and you are allowed to purchase a certain amount of food. But I am now curious, did I mis-understand something, or is that specific to giftcards to grocery stores? (In the case of "groceries" you are obviously not giving a detailed account of what is in your cupboard in the paperwork)

[sailing2013]

Lady,

I genuinely appreciate your input. Its obvious you are well-versed in this subject, and your replies are always clearly articulated. I'm a fan of your posts, not just in the thread, but all across the forum as well.

Couple points of clarification:

1) The gift cards, as well as the airline tickets and pre-paid rent, were paid via credit card.

2) I have zero worry about judgments; hence under no circumstances am I trying to conceal assets or cash.

If I decide to file--and right now this is still a big 'if'--I will be, at most, 60-days late on my debt. As it stands, I have $20K in cash; and can cover my minimum payments for the next few months (while I am actively seeking employment).

3) I do not need to make a decision to file, or not to file, until at least April. That gives me four month to turn around my lot, while I will continue to make payments. If, by that time, my situation doesn't improve, and I make the decision to file, then I will probably stop making payments. Considering I'll file when I'm back in SF in July, thus, at most I'll be 60-days late.

As it is, I'm just in an exploratory phase. An ounce of prevention equals a pound of cure. Had I know I'd even consider this path, I certainly wouldn't have complicated my situation with the airline tickets, gift cards and pre-paid rent!

Cheers,
Steve

[helpmeout]

You don't live in California, it is extremely likely that you will not be able to use California's exemptions. You will have a hard time explaing the return ticket to Australia if you are claiming to be a resident of California. In fact, you may find that you aren't able to file in the US at all since you haven't lived here in years.

[sailing2013]

I appreciate your opinion, Help. Not the answer I'd like to hear, but, alas, that's the value of this message board.

Why I believe I should be able to use CA exemptions:

1) All of my assets--bank and brokerage accounts--are in California. The way the law is written, "principle assets" determine the district where I should file. Since all of my principal assets are in California, I should be eligible.

2) I am not a citizen of Australia. And, in the legal sense, I am not even a resident--I have a tourist visa. Technically, I am still a resident of California. Supporting this point, I just voted in the recent presidential election as a Californian.

3) Moreover, my current and valid driver's license is issued from California; I receive my mail in California; and the address on all of my credit, bank and brokerages accounts is in California.

4) Finally, I have lived in no other place in America besides California. There would be no district other than in California where I could file. And certainly BK law does not preclude American's living abroad from filing; that would be unwarranted, senseless discrimination.

Franky, I am interested in hearing counter-aurguments to these points. More than anything, the two strongest arguments supporting my position are "principle assets" and that I vote in California elections. I may not physically live in California, but I certainly am a resident.

Cheers,
Steve

[tobee43]

It's looking like a duck, walking like a duck, and quacking like a duck...........

i'll second...that! or i'll quack along with valle.

pre paid cards
airline tickets pre paid

pre cooking means you're intending on eating it later.

personally, i would rather enjoy going from Australia to CA on a reg basis. that could work for me.

OP...good luck to you. again, to me anyway...the prefix pre at the beginning of it, it means to do something before something happens.

[tobee43]

You don't live in California, it is extremely likely that you will not be able to use California's exemptions. You will have a hard time explaing the return ticket to Australia if you are claiming to be a resident of California. In fact, you may find that you aren't able to file in the US at all since you haven't lived here in years.

i very much agree.

[sailing2013]

pre cooking means you're intending on eating it later.

...the prefix pre at the beginning of it, it means to do something before something happens.

I must take exception at what you're insinuating. While I took Frogger and Valle's comments to be a gentle ribbing of how my situation may appear, you, Tobee, seem to be implying I have nefarious intent.

How much in advance do you purchase international flight tickets? I'd say six months prior is standard. You just don't wait a month before you're ready to go and buy one--I'm not flying Southwest from SF to Seattle for a weekend! This is a trip I take every two years--there's planning and coordination with my family involved. Coming home when you're an expat is a very big deal. Not to mention how much you save by booking in advance!

That said, I do appreciate the devil's advocate role your reply serves. As I mentioned in a previous post, I never would have thought something so innocuous like buying Christmas presents could possibly be embedded with criminal intent. And your skepticism helps guide my decision if I will file on not.

Regarding your concurrence with Help's comment, it would be more helpful if could expand on why you think I would not be eligible to apply in CA; especially in light of the counter-argument I presented. Namely, my assets are in CA; and, since I vote in CA, I am therefore a legal resident.

Cheers,
Steve

[tobee43]

you can take it as you chose.

however, i know this steve. i have family living out of the country and during the time of our financial crisis, and for years prior, the affordability was at best questionable and consider quite a luxury as opposed to a necessity, such as supplying food for the table, or lights and heat to keep warm.

gift cards purchased in advance for Christmas, make little or no sense to me, as they can be purchased on line on Christmas Eve or sent by mail to the recipient. most of us who have experience financial hardship would not dream of purchasing 2k worth or gifts when we are just concerned about keeping a roof over our children's heads.

bother to read some of my many posts, and you can see i am usually quite compassionate and care deeply for those that need help.

with respect to why i would not think you are eligible to file in CA or as helpmeout pointed out, it's a residency issue that states require and vary from state to state. now, many bk are much more scrutinized than years ago, and while you can file, you are taking risks of the trustees putting you through quite a litany of tasks and questions that may end up not being looked upon exactly in your best interest or to say it more directly, put one in a good light.

you really should take a moment out and take in a few free bk consults and understand exactly where you stand and why.

[sailing2013]

Thank you, Tobee, I do appreciate your follow-up.

And I think the compassion you display for those scraping-by is very commendable. You have a big heart. And I'm sorry to read that you went through a spell where basic necessities for your children were in danger. I can't imagine how hard that must have been for you. But I'm glad you pulled yourself through. Congratulations, you should be proud.

My personal situation is a little different. I'm still sitting on $20K cash; and, while my unsecured debt exceeds this amount (I have $50K in credit card debt), my basic needs are being met; and I should be okay for the next few months. I live a very basic, simple life--my monthly expenses are around $1250 TOTAL. I don't own a single luxury and never spend more than I need to; I'm extremely careful with money, especially when there's none coming in!

I'm not even sure if I'm going to file BK, Tobee. As it stands, I have about four months to find work. And if I do, there will be no need to file. I'm just exploring my options, in case it comes to this. When I touch-down in SF in July, if I don't find work, I will have about $8K cash remaining, while my debt will be the same.

In hindsight, I never would have purchased the return ticket or the presents if I thought I would file. Not just because the ethics involved, but the suspicions it may arouse...and suspicions aroused it has!

[tobee43]

steve, my response was more esoteric than personal. but thank you for your comment.

in as much as pre-thinking your options there is nothing wrong with speculation. however, pre,-buying LOL! much more so. to say one is careful with money and in the same breath say you purchased 2k worth of gift cards is somewhat baffling...although, i'm not saying your intent may not have been based on generosity. it's just trustees will not see it through your eyes as such.

it's good to think ahead. i will be more specific for residency issues. some states make you prove your residency to the utmost degree. if you are here six months out of the year, in some states that may be acceptable, in others, not so much. proof may be requested in different types of forms...such as the court figuring out your electrically costs. (it happened to us, so i know).

the objective now is to move forward. you now know what you are suppose to do and not do if you plan on filing within the next year or so. that, again, being said, does not mean you will not have the residency issues. that, again, i would run by a CA atty to make certain of where you stand. and, not withstanding 11 USC § 109, which still may be questionable.

understanding that one must cease all charging 90 days prior to filing is important. one does not want the court to suspect or consider fraud in any shape, way or form. it is best to file your petition with as clean hands as possible.

[helpmeout]

2) I am not a citizen of Australia. And, in the legal sense, I am not even a resident--I have a tourist visa. Technically, I am still a resident of California. Supporting this point, I just voted in the recent presidential election as a Californian.

Technically, you have to actually LIVE in California for a year BEFORE you can be considered a resident. How do I know this? I used to live in California. I know what the residency requirements are. And you don't meet them. Having an address there isn't the same as PHYSICALLY living there. Which you haven't done in YEARS. You most certainly are not a resident of California.

Your strongest arguments are extremely weak. They have proof of where you have actually been living. It's on your tourist vista.

You MAY be able to file in California. But if you can, it's the Federal Exemptions that you will be using. As you don't qualify for the California exemptions. Of course, even being able to get exemptions is in question. You will want to consult with a BK attorney. Be sure to tell that attorney the country that you have been a resident in for the last few years. And that would not be the United States. You may not be a citizen, but it is your residence. And there is rock solid proof of that.