Presumption of Abuse and Discharge

[mbschwegel]

Yes, school sponsored field trips, I claimed $9.67 for one child and $5.55 for the other child. My oldest child has an overnight trip to the NC coast as part of the school year. Faith formation was $21 per child.

[ValleYum]

Yes, school sponsored field trips, I claimed $9.67 for one child and $5.55 for the other child. My oldest child has an overnight trip to the NC coast as part of the school year. Faith formation was $21 per child.

Wow, mbschwegel, the Faith formation classes and field trips just seem LUDICROUS to object to.

I googled: "school-sponsored/field trip/means test/allowable/bankruptcy" and hit on tons of attorney's websites that said school-sponsored field trips and school supplies were considered education expenses (bear in mind these were attorneys not trustees).

There is a limit of around $147 per month per child that can be claimed for education expenses - this dollar amount was per a line-by-line guidance document regarding means testing on the DOJ-UST website. Link: http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...ne_by_line.pdf Look at the bottom of page 8 under "Line 38, Education expenses for dependent children under 18" - I referred to this document so many times when we filed. It does not specifically address religious education or field trips but it doesn't say no to them either. Hopefully, it will be of some help to you, too.

Hang in there - and please keep us posted with updates!

[pamkev]

Wow didn't realized school sponsor field trips you could claim. Learn something every day. If you can claim them and the TT is objecting to them I would see the judge also. Good luck

[pamkev]

delete

[ValleYum]

Wow didn't realized school sponsor field trips you could claim. Learn something every day. If you can claim them and the TT is objecting to them I would see the judge also. Good luck

I am not saying that she absolutely can use these expenses - but just that it appears in other districts that other trustees allow it.

[tobee43]

I am not saying that she absolutely can use these expenses - but just that it appears in other districts that other trustees allow it.

certainly does, that's why this trustee, well, something doesn't make sense here. i understand they are not suppose to be compassionate sorts, however, our children are our future, these amounts are more than reasonable to further their education and let them enjoy these learning and life experiences.

it's like being between a rock and a hard place. i would go for the dismissal, but nothing would or could guarantee the OP wouldn't get that trustee again. what a shame they are giving people such a difficult time, like it's not a difficult and stressful enough situation already.

i still think it may have to do with the rental property for some reason.

[ValleYum]

I would take it to the judge. The education amount is under $60 per month for 2 kids. She has documentation of 3 years of charitable donations - "the Religious Liberty and Charitable Donation Clarification Act of 2006, Pub. L. 109-439 clarifies the Bankruptcy Code to ensure that above-median debtors may make continued charitable contributions". (quoted from the line by line document linked above - emphasis is mine). Three years seems pretty continued.

I am sitting here just shaking my damn head - I can't figure this out.

[tobee43]

me too. let's just hope the judge has his or her head on straight that day.

[justbroke]

Let's just say this... the UST needs to flex his/her muscles once in a while on an over-the-median case just to give the appearance that they are tough. Otherwise, much of this does not make sense given the documentation! This is not to say that the UST is being egregious, vindictive, or mean. The job of the Office of the UST (OUST) is to challenge filers who may appear to "not" be deserving of a Chapter 7 discharge; or those that could fund a Chapter 13.

In this situation, you do just what you're doing. You object to the Motion and plead your case. In fact, the UST is overruled or denied many more times than you could imagine. We wish you the best.

[mbschwegel]

Thanks for all the support. It has been crazy to say the least. The trustee also considered my husband company travel reimbursements income and any time I transferred money from one bank to another bank, the deposit was considered income. If the bank transfer worked that way, I would go to the bank 10 times a day. I have produced documentation on all expense accounts, bank withdrawals and deposits, county vehicle tax, state highway tax, all donations, last 7 years IRA statements, last 18 months of bank statements, child care receipts and health care spending account records in addition to the pay statement, tax returns and whatever else the trustee asked for as documentation. Our attorney is filing the objection tomorrow and thinks the trustee will withdraw the motion to dismiss. I am sure the trustee gets 30 days to respond, so I guess we will start the waiting game again. On the positive side, by the time the BK is ruled on, the 6 months limit for tax refund, inheritance, etc. will be over.

[alorth]

Well....our UST didn't waver in forcing us to convert from 7 to 13. Its just lovely....and yes I'm being sarcastic. Hope you have better luck than we had, mbschwegel.

[mbschwegel]

I am sorry that you have to convert. I know it is frustrating and now it seems like forever before your BK is done.

We will not convert, we will just wait another 6 months and file again. After all the paperwork was amended, we were over $400 negative on the means test. We filed BK in May and were dismissed because the judge ruled that surrendered property can not be used as part of the means test. North Carolina is one of a few states that has this viewpoint, most states allow surrendered property to be included in the means test. This ruling happened at the same time we filed. The ruling is being challenged and due to court this month. If the appeal judge rules that surrendered property is part of the means test, then we will be $2,000 negative on the means test.

[cgfromnc]

mbsschwegal - did you ever get this resolved?

[mbschwegel]

Not yet! The trustee did a 2004 exam last Friday and we had to go thru every deposit into our bank accounts, every donation and answer questions for 1-1/2 hours related to our means test. We ended up adjusting a couple of entries, but we are still -371 on the means tests. Fortunately, I had paperwork to verify every deduction and deposit. Now we are waiting to see if the trustee wants to impose "totality of circumstances" to our case since we brought a new vehicle right before we filed, when my husband changed job, he pick up health insurance and I got a private life insurance policy because I am diabetic.

The ironic part is we are -321 on our schedule J, so we can't even convert to a Chapter 13. This is so frustrating!!

[mbschwegel]

THE TRUSTEE IS WITHDRAWING THE MOTION TO DISMISS FOR PRESUMPTION OF ABUSE!!!!! We will be discharged and closed for our Chapter 7 in the next few days!

This forum has been a tremendous help and I appreciate all the advice. Thanks.

Now off to start afresh without any of the housing mess from FL anymore!!