Attorney withdrawl from Ch. 7 case

[gunna2gtthr]

I was wondering when it is customary for an attorney to withdraw from the case? Is it after the hearing, or after the discharge?
thanks!

[LadyInTheRed]

An attorney only withdraws if he ceases to represent you and another attorney or you are substituted in his place.

You seem to think that the attorney has to withdraw at some point. That's not the case.

[HHM]

Normally, an attorney does not withdraw since most attorneys limit representation such that the only thing they are on the hook for AFTER the BK is filed is 341 meeting. Some attorneys take the extra step to withdraw after the 341 meeting. I am guessing you used a bargain basement attorney. However, the scope of representation depends on the retainer agreement you entered into with the attorney.

Let me ask you this...how much did you pay for your BK?

[LadyInTheRed]

Some attorneys take the extra step to withdraw after the 341 meeting.

Interesting. So do they substitute the debtor? Does the debtor need to consent?

[HHM]

Interesting. So do they substitute the debtor? Does the debtor need to consent?

In CO, the attorney files a notice of withdrawal with an affidavit stating that he has complied with all his obligations under the fee agreement and BK code. It is up to the debtor to object to that Notice. This is somewhat common with the $500 BK firms.

Interesting thing to note, many of the CO firms that advertise a low rate, there average fee for a chapter 7 doesn't come close to the advertised rate.

This website actually did a fee survey of CO BK attorneys and compared actually fee disclosures of 73 BK firms in CO.

http://coloradochapter7.info/what-are-colorado-chapter-7-bankruptcy-attorney-fees/

[gunna2gtthr]

I truly thought I did my research in picking this guy, but I now believe I was ignorant and stupid. He was "nice" and accomidating until it came down to the nitty gritty of a chapter 7. I am neck deep in going back and forth with the trustee at this stage of the game and need attorney help. I just got a letter today with my attorney filing a motion to withdraw. Up until this point, I have had many questions for this attorney, who has literally yelled at me and come just shy of calling me stupid. There were some serious questions I asked him about my house, plus other questions, and he just got peeved. Last weekend, he told me that his job with his clients is always done after the hearing, but he would do me a favor and "help" me out if I left good reviews for him on his web page (I didnt)...He told me that my case is soooooo complicated (it isn't) that I have cost him more than I have paid him. I believe that I paid him about $2,000, but I would have to check. I am not exactly sure because I have had to pay this and that for court fees, etc, and my mind is fried right now.
He has made this process way more painful than it already has, and his belittling and cocky attitude have been no less than intimidating. Now I will be left to talk with the trustee on my own. This is all scary, some of it I don't undertstand, and to have an attorney that is belittling and downright mean has been fairly traumatic.....

[despritfreya]

The fee agreement you signed is a contract between you and the attny. It describes the duties of both parties and what constitutes the end of the representation. It should also describe what is not covered by the agreement and/or the funds you paid to hire the attny. It sounds like the scope of the representation has exceeded the scope of the fee agreement and the attny either want more money to cover the issues not covered in the agreement or wants out. The attny is not going to do additional work for free. If you are unwilling to compensate the attny and the attny is unwilling to continue to represent you (for free), then the attny must officially withdraw from being the “attny of record”. That requires a motion filed in your case.

The information you are giving is contradictory. On the one hand you state “I am neck deep in going back and forth with the trustee at this stage of the game and need attorney help. . .” Yet, on the other hand you state, “He told me that my case is soooooo complicated (it isn't). . .” It sounds like there are numerous issues that the Trustee is looking into which might be outside the context of a fixed fee retainer agreement. What exactly are those issues?

Des.

[HHM]

Hate to say it, this sounds like a problem with you, not your attorney.

As Desp points out, ultimately the fee agreement defines the scope of representation. Sounds like the case IS complicated (or, at least, much more time consuming) and the attorney finally had a enough and is getting out. Attorneys CAN do that, in essence, an attorney can fire a client just like a client can fire an attorney. However, when there is a court proceeding involved, the attorney must get permission from the judge. That is what is going on. Generally, judges will permit the withdraw barring exigent circumstances (e.g. day before trial).

[kawh]

$2000 is a lot to pay for a simple Chapter 7, imo. But your problems with the trustee are not just your problems, if they stem from the way the petition was written. The attorney has to resolve anything connected with the petition, doesn't he? I took a look at the previous post about a jointly owned house, appearing to have been bought by two unrelated persons, and it's hard to see how a trustee could force the sale of a house, just to obtain the debtor's portion of any equity. So if the OP received the advice that the interest in the house would not be touchable by the trustee, and now that advice is proved to be wrong or questionable, and maybe the attorney has a short fuse, I dunno.

I don't think the OP has provided us with enough details to judge, but I sure can relate to the statement, "This is all scary, some of it I don't undertstand, and to have an attorney that is belittling and downright mean has been fairly traumatic..... "

If I were in this situation, I would research everything on the law involved, and spend time doing that, to get my mind of the horrific attorney. That attorney is not going to do anything for the OP that the court does not absolutely require him to do, and he's trying to get out of doing anything more whatsoever.

[justbroke]

$2000 is a lot to pay for a simple Chapter 7, imo. But your problems with the trustee are not just your problems, if they stem from the way the petition was written. The attorney has to resolve anything connected with the petition, doesn't he? I took a look at the previous post about a jointly owned house, appearing to have been bought by two unrelated persons, and it's hard to see how a trustee could force the sale of a house, just to obtain the debtor's portion of any equity.

First, this is not a simple Chapter 7 when there are real "juicy" assets on the table. This is precisely how we, and I'm speaking as a one myself, pro se debtors get into lots of trouble. A "simple" Chapter 7 is one with absolutely NO assets (no car, no house, no liquid property (cash), no strange deposits mixing (earnings with SSA/SSDI), or any other property issues.

As for the Trustee selling property that doesn't 100% belong to the debtor? It happens every single day. While some people are able to negotiate and perhaps "buy back" the equity to that the Trustee does not need to sell the property, Trustees step into the shoes of the Debtor day in and day out and sell property that is jointly owned property by the debtor and one or more non-debtors.

So if the OP received the advice that the interest in the house would not be touchable by the trustee, and now that advice is proved to be wrong or questionable, and maybe the attorney has a short fuse, I dunno.

I don't believe that was the original question. The question was about being "included" in bankruptcy which has a very specific meaning. That meaning has nothing to do with exemptions.

Bankruptcy can be scary, but this is why you need to understand your fee agreement and what you are paying for. Attorneys can quickly burn hours on even a rather "simple" Chapter 7 that turns out to be more complex because the debtor, either knowingly or without knowledge, left out important details concerning real and personal property.

As unfortunate as it is when it does happen... it does happen.

[gunna2gtthr]

Thank you, Kawh, for your kind and understanding post. I read the one before yours and sighed. I then wrote a response that for some reason didn't post.
I hate being misunderstood more than I hate being belittled and scornfully talked to by my attorney. I looked, and I actually paid him $1,460 including court fees.
I never did understand about the house, I mean truly understand. I heard his words from a raised voice, but I didn't understand his logic. The more I asked him
to please explain so I knew what he meant, he got madder, then physically walked away from me. When it came down to the trustee wanting $21 from my bank account
he did say the "douche bag" was nickleing and diming me to death.
I believe the incident leading to his withdrawl was a threat he made to me that I didn't do. I received a Stipulation to Pay with two blatant errors. One regarded math, and the other regarded an exempt asset the trustee demanded payment for. My attorney's assistant told me to sign it. I refused and called my attorney. He told me to write a letter explaining the problems and he would have his secretary copy and paste so that the letter looked like it came from them and he would send it to the trustee.
He then emailed the trustee and told the trustee I didn’t want a couple of the things that were non-exempt. He asked the trustee how he wanted me to proceed with the items. WHAT???? I never said that, nor did I want to give up my old horse tack from when I was a kid.
He then left me a voicemail telling me that he usually withdraws after the hearing, but he would do me a favor only if I left a positive review for him on his webpage. After enough times of his unanswered emails and phone calls, I didn’t follow his request…. He had me between a rock and a hard place. Either I give in and lie on his page, or he walks away. He filed and walked.
The purpose of this thread was not to trash talk this guy – I was surprised to get his motion to withdraw and wanted feedback if most attorneys do that. The work has been sifting through my piddly assets and doing it alone and understanding what might go has been daunting.
Really, the only extra work this guy has had to do is to answer my questions so that I understand my rights and the consequences of a ch.7.
Regarding the house I had posted about before, he put in the documents that I lived there. HUH??? He knew that he knew that I didn’t. So, in the hearing, the trustee asked me 3 times if I lived there, and raised his eyebrows as I told him no, and he asked why the filing said I did. My attorney jumped up and said he would amend (not sure if that’s the right word) that point.
This whole experience is one I never want to do again. Years ago, I got a divorce, and my divorce attorney was a kind, helpful man. He walked me through everything and answered every question with professionalism. He didn’t cuss, he didn’t get mad. Oh well, welcome to the world of attorneys…

[justbroke]

I empathize and there are some bad attorneys out there. Those that are impatient, belittling, harsh, or uncaring, probably should be in a different area of the practice of law. Emotions are high in bankruptcy and people can actually really lose property in bankruptcy if it's not carefully done. Once errors are introduced into the mix, that puts the Trustee on "edge" and they will start looking at every single thing in the petition.

While errors are not uncommon so too are amendments. I have not ever read where any attorney was 100% in all their pleadings and forms. In fact, many attorneys ask the debtor(s) to review all the paperwork, page by page, word for word, before signing the paperwork and filing the paperwork. I believe that my initial petition, without my plan, was some 78-80 pages... and that didn't include any additional statements and other paperwork that my Chapter 13 Trustee wanted! I'm sure my total paperwork in my case, with my pleadings, motions, objections, relief from stay requests, hearings, orders, Adversary Proceeding, claims, etc... exceed over 500 pages. There were errors from creditors, the Trustee, and even myself!

As you already discovered, some attorneys are more personal (personable), while others may be more distant, mechanical, and hands off. BKForum really does, collectively, wish that you had a better time with your case because that is what we are here for; as a support forum! When a problem is presented, we try to analyze it on its face value, and provide insight into what we believe, based on our collective experiences, may be the underlying issue. Do not take the analysis as an attack on your case, but as a reflection of what we see based on the information provided.

What's your status now in your case?

[gunna2gtthr]

I have no clue what the status is, and I haven't dared asked him. The hearing was July 19th. I got one letter that the creditors have until Sept 28th to file an objection, and a letter that they have until the end of dec to file something to get my assets. Other than that, I have no idea. My attorney's secretary said this could go on for years.

[justbroke]

When it comes to an asset case, it is true that it can take weeks, months and even years (usually no more than 2-3) for assets to be liquidated and a distribution made.

What you will probably find is that your "last date to file a complaint to determine dischargeability," which you say is 9/28/2012, no creditor will file anything. Your discharge will come shortly thereafter. As for closing and administering your "asset" case, that is the part that could take some time. Hang in there. With any luck, maybe the Trustee decides the property is just not worth it and abandons his interest. Only time will tell.

[LadyInTheRed]

So, you paid $1,000 for attorney fees, the rest was court fees. $1,000 is pretty low fee. It's not surprising that it doesn't cover more than
gathering your information, preparing and filing the petition and attending the 341. But, he could be a decent human being and explain to you what is going on and what your options are. Since he apparently won't do that, have you asked him how much he'd charge for an hour of his time to do that?

He asked the trustee how he wanted me to proceed with the items. WHAT???? I never said that, nor did I want to give up my old horse tack from when I was a kid.

He probably doesn't think the trustee wants your old horse tack. Since you wouldn't sign the stipulation to pay, he called the trustee's bluff (hopefully it's a bluff), hoping he will abandon it. It could work out in your favor. But, he should have discussed the strategy with you before telling the trustee you don't want the non-exempt assets.