Health Club Membership

[frogger]

Seems to be a little misunderstanding on this thread as to what a creditor really is. A creditor is any company or vendor you establish any line of credit with.

I must respectfully disagree with this.

Here is the word defined:

creditor n. a person or entity to whom a debt is owed.

An individual to whom an obligation is owed because he or she has given something of value in exchange. One who may legally demand and receive money, either through the fulfillment of a contract or due to injury sustained as a result of another's Negligence or intentionally wrongful act. The term creditor is also used to describe an individual who is engaged in the business of lending money or selling items for which immediate payment is not demanded but an obligation of repayment exists as of a future date.

An attachment creditor is an individual who has obtained an order of attachment from a court to command a sheriff to seize the property of a debtor who has defaulted in the repayment of an outstanding obligation so that the property may be used to satisfy the creditor's claim.

A Judgment Creditor is a party who has gone to court and obtained a judgment against the person who owes him or her money. If that judgment creditor obtains an order of attachment, he or she becomes an attachment creditor.

A general creditor or creditor at large is an individual who has neither a lien nor a security interest in the property of the debtor.

A junior creditor is one whose right to collect money from a debtor is subordinate to that of another individual who also has a right to collect payment of a different debt from the same debtor. The person with the primary right to payment is known as a senior creditor.

A principal creditor is the party who has a claim against the debtor that is far greater than the debt owed to any other creditor, and in some instances, to all other creditors combined.

A secured creditor holds a special legal right in particular property of the debtor to assure him or her of repayment of the debt. A creditor who has the protection of a lien or mortgage is secured.

A single creditor has a lien on only one of the debtor's funds or accounts.

Petitioning creditors are those parties to whom one debtor owes money and who apply to the court of Bankruptcy in order to secure the debtor's property and distribute it equitably among them.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/creditor

A credit line does not make someone a creditor. There is no debt owed......

[keepsmiling]

I don't see how this is any different from a phone bill that is paid every month.
I'd let it go.

[mlsj2009]

I must respectfully disagree with this.

Here is the word defined:

creditor n. a person or entity to whom a debt is owed.

An individual to whom an obligation is owed because he or she has given something of value in exchange. One who may legally demand and receive money, either through the fulfillment of a contract or due to injury sustained as a result of another's Negligence or intentionally wrongful act. The term creditor is also used to describe an individual who is engaged in the business of lending money or selling items for which immediate payment is not demanded but an obligation of repayment exists as of a future date.

An attachment creditor is an individual who has obtained an order of attachment from a court to command a sheriff to seize the property of a debtor who has defaulted in the repayment of an outstanding obligation so that the property may be used to satisfy the creditor's claim.

A Judgment Creditor is a party who has gone to court and obtained a judgment against the person who owes him or her money. If that judgment creditor obtains an order of attachment, he or she becomes an attachment creditor.

A general creditor or creditor at large is an individual who has neither a lien nor a security interest in the property of the debtor.

A junior creditor is one whose right to collect money from a debtor is subordinate to that of another individual who also has a right to collect payment of a different debt from the same debtor. The person with the primary right to payment is known as a senior creditor.

A principal creditor is the party who has a claim against the debtor that is far greater than the debt owed to any other creditor, and in some instances, to all other creditors combined.

A secured creditor holds a special legal right in particular property of the debtor to assure him or her of repayment of the debt. A creditor who has the protection of a lien or mortgage is secured.

A single creditor has a lien on only one of the debtor's funds or accounts.

Petitioning creditors are those parties to whom one debtor owes money and who apply to the court of Bankruptcy in order to secure the debtor's property and distribute it equitably among them.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/creditor

A credit line does not make someone a creditor. There is no debt owed......

Your right of course, frogger, my mistake for not saying a credit line 'used' makes a creditor out of the one extending the credit. That is the problem with semantics. A credit line by itself with 0 balance does not make a creditor, just a potential creditor. The point I made is still in line with being right, though. My whole point was that a creditor is someone who has actually extended credit to a debtor that has used the credit to obtain debt. I used the illustration of the gym taking the payment out of the checking account at the end of the 30 day usage by the debtor. The gym would be a creditor in that case, but would not be if it took money out to pay for the gym time before the consumer used the product. That was my point exactly. Thanks for the correction though, as a credit line can be a different thing until you use it.

[hmsmith]

Well this is what I thought, but I just don't understand why my lawyer would be pushing me to list them as a creditor. She said we would list everything, but to me this is just another bill. I'm not planning on listing the 2 credit cards with 0 balances either!

I'm assuming you told her you didn't want this gym membership canceled and that you didn't want to list them as a creditor, but rather an expense. So, with that in mind, what did your attorney tell you as to why she wanted you to list it? If she just said "we have to list everything" then I would ask why? Tell her your concerns. Is it a large monthly amount or under $30?

By the way did you ever go on your trip to Hawaii?? What did you decide to do?

[mlsj2009]

One other point, frogger, just to show you how silly these semantics arguments really are. I do appreciate you taking the time to google all the different meaning of the word creditor. It should have been beneficial to you and me, if no one else. But I did say "A creditor is any company or vendor you establish any line of credit with". My use of the word "establish" in this case could imply usage.
1: to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement
2
obsolete : settle 7
3
a : to make firm or stable b : to introduce and cause to grow and multiply <establish grass on pasturelands>
4
a : to bring into existence : found <established a republic> b : bring about, effect <established friendly relations>
5
a : to put on a firm basis : set up <establish his son in business> b : to put into a favorable position c : to gain full recognition or acceptance of <the role established her as a star>
6
: to make (a church) a national or state institution
7
: to put beyond doubt : prove <established my innocence>

If I establish a line of credit, I bring it into existence or I could cause it to grow and multiply, but how does a credit line mulitply if not used- implication.

Isn't the dictionary and semantics fun?

[keepsmiling]

Semantics are excruciatingly important when it comes to law-- pretty much the essence, no?
And that is what we are talking about.
Of course each judge interprets as to his or her preferred meaning.

[HHM]

We are getting bogged down in understanding what a creditor is in the "broader context" and that is not helpful. So, let's distinguish a few things. The BK code actually speaks in terms of "claims." So, simply stated, a creditor is any person or entity that has a "claim" against the debtor. A claim is simply a "right to payment" or a "right of some equitable remedy (think, injunctions)". This is right out of the BK code 101(5) and 101(10).

Thus, in BK, it is more helpful to think in terms of "claimant" than in terms of "creditor."

So, the question becomes, if, on the date of filing, does entity X have a "claim" against the debtor? (a right of payment due at that moment in time that "could" be enforced if the entity so chose, e.g. lawsuit).

In the gym membership context, if the membership is now month to month and there is no "cancellation penalty", and the debtor is current on payment at time of filing, the gym is NOT a claimant. The gym cannot assert any right to anything of the debtor. Same goes for credit card companies that have a zero balance. Sure, in the broader sense, credit card companies ARE "creditors", but in the BK context, if there is no balance due, those creditors are NOT CLAIMANTS in BK, and therefore need not be listed.

However, it is BEST practice to list all creditors, even those with zero balance (you never know what misc "fees" may pop up).

[tobee43]

We are getting bogged down in understanding what a creditor is in the "broader context" and that is not helpful. So, let's distinguish a few things. The BK code actually speaks in terms of "claims." So, simply stated, a creditor is any person or entity that has a "claim" against the debtor. A claim is simply a "right to payment" or a "right of some equitable remedy (think, injunctions)". This is right out of the BK code 101(5) and 101(10).

Thus, in BK, it is more helpful to think in terms of "claimant" than in terms of "creditor."

So, the question becomes, if, on the date of filing, does entity X have a "claim" against the debtor? (a right of payment due at that moment in time that "could" be enforced if the entity so chose, e.g. lawsuit).

In the gym membership context, if the membership is now month to month and there is no "cancellation penalty", and the debtor is current on payment at time of filing, the gym is NOT a claimant. The gym cannot assert any right to anything of the debtor. Same goes for credit card companies that have a zero balance. Sure, in the broader sense, credit card companies ARE "creditors", but in the BK context, if there is no balance due, those creditors are NOT CLAIMANTS in BK, and therefore need not be listed.

However, it is BEST practice to list all creditors, even those with zero balance (you never know what misc "fees" may pop up).

while i insisted on NOT listing those creditors with zero balances on my petition, i am a walking contradiction, as i also i listed everyone and their mother and their mother's mothers to make certain we were covered in every possible way. (with the exclusion of a few credit cards with those zero balances).

hhm and frogger's advise is sound as far as i see it, even though i didn't exactly follow it

i'm just wondering if a trustee would consider the cost of a gym as a luxury item? which they may frown upon. personally, i think gym memberships are and participating in exercising is an excellent way to STAY and KEEP healthily, however, here, for example the cost is over 1k a year to a "nice" gym.

[ksgirl38]

I'm assuming you told her you didn't want this gym membership canceled and that you didn't want to list them as a creditor, but rather an expense. So, with that in mind, what did your attorney tell you as to why she wanted you to list it? If she just said "we have to list everything" then I would ask why? Tell her your concerns. Is it a large monthly amount or under $30?

By the way did you ever go on your trip to Hawaii?? What did you decide to do?

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, although I think I'm probably more confused than when I started.

The gym membership is $50 a month and my logic in not listing them was that they have me set up on an autopay and I'm afraid that they would cancel me if the autopay got canceled. When I went in to change my bank info with them I asked what other payment options there were and they said this was it. I seem to remember someone saying their Sallie Mae autopayments got cancelled after they filed so this is where my concern comes from. I'd just prefer not to broadcast my BK all over the place. If they find out, they find out, but in this case since I'm current and everything I'm not understanding why they would need to be placed as a creditor. I do have them listed as an expense and it's not a contract membership, it's month to month, and I pay at the beginning of the month for that month. Hope I answered all the questions.

The attorney finally said I didn't have to list them, but I kinda felt like I had to fight for it.

Oh, and the credit cards, they are 2 department store credit cards with 0 balances. I'm lucky I use them once a year. I basically just keep them for the perks. I seem to recall seeing on this forum somewhere that some people had some that survived so I was hoping to take my chances with them and not list them and see if they make it. I got my birthday coupon from one of them the other day so we'll see what happens.

[ksgirl38]

We are getting bogged down in understanding what a creditor is in the "broader context" and that is not helpful. So, let's distinguish a few things. The BK code actually speaks in terms of "claims." So, simply stated, a creditor is any person or entity that has a "claim" against the debtor. A claim is simply a "right to payment" or a "right of some equitable remedy (think, injunctions)". This is right out of the BK code 101(5) and 101(10).

Thus, in BK, it is more helpful to think in terms of "claimant" than in terms of "creditor."

So, the question becomes, if, on the date of filing, does entity X have a "claim" against the debtor? (a right of payment due at that moment in time that "could" be enforced if the entity so chose, e.g. lawsuit).

In the gym membership context, if the membership is now month to month and there is no "cancellation penalty", and the debtor is current on payment at time of filing, the gym is NOT a claimant. The gym cannot assert any right to anything of the debtor. Same goes for credit card companies that have a zero balance. Sure, in the broader sense, credit card companies ARE "creditors", but in the BK context, if there is no balance due, those creditors are NOT CLAIMANTS in BK, and therefore need not be listed.

However, it is BEST practice to list all creditors, even those with zero balance (you never know what misc "fees" may pop up).

Now this I understand. Thank you.

[ksgirl38]

while i insisted on NOT listing those creditors with zero balances on my petition, i am a walking contradiction, as i also i listed everyone and their mother and their mother's mothers to make certain we were covered in every possible way. (with the exclusion of a few credit cards with those zero balances).

hhm and frogger's advise is sound as far as i see it, even though i didn't exactly follow it

i'm just wondering if a trustee would consider the cost of a gym as a luxury item? which they may frown upon. personally, i think gym memberships are and participating in exercising is an excellent way to STAY and KEEP healthily, however, here, for example the cost is over 1k a year to a "nice" gym.

It was listed in the expense portion of my attorney's questionnaire so who knows. Although I will admit they charge me more than they should, but I guess you have to have some vices.

[keepsmiling]

I do believe that we have, in the past, discussed how some people have written that they put their cigarettes down as an expense.
......
I'd like to think a tt would look at least as favorably at a reasonable gym payment as they would at the cigs. I guess it may depend on whether or not s/he is a smoker.....

Ksgirl, I don't recall your circumstances as to whether you are borderline 13 or not, but this may all be moot if there wouldn't be enough dmi for the minimum percentage anyway. It is interesting to discuss tho.

[ksgirl38]

I do believe that we have, in the past, discussed how some people have written that they put their cigarettes down as an expense.
......
I'd like to think a tt would look at least as favorably at a reasonable gym payment as they would at the cigs. I guess it may depend on whether or not s/he is a smoker.....

Ksgirl, I don't recall your circumstances as to whether you are borderline 13 or not, but this may all be moot if there wouldn't be enough dmi for the minimum percentage anyway. It is interesting to discuss tho.

Ch 7. I just didn't understand why I needed to list them as a creditor, but apparently I don't so I think I'm good.

[ksgirl38]

So in trying to cut expenses I looked into another gym today and it turns out that the $53 I'm paying each month is actually more of a bargain than I thought. The other one quoted me $73/month. Guess it's not as extravagant as I thought. Although I still wish it wasn't quite as expensive.

[ksgirl38]

I'm assuming you told her you didn't want this gym membership canceled and that you didn't want to list them as a creditor, but rather an expense. So, with that in mind, what did your attorney tell you as to why she wanted you to list it? If she just said "we have to list everything" then I would ask why? Tell her your concerns. Is it a large monthly amount or under $30?

By the way did you ever go on your trip to Hawaii?? What did you decide to do?

Yes, I took the trip to Hawaii. Had an amazing time and absolutely no regrets.