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Mortgage NOT recorded by lender. Will trustee take house ?

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    Mortgage NOT recorded by lender. Will trustee take house ?

    After long consideration I decided to file for bk in the near future...

    Now I just discovered that SUNTRUST/mortgage holder never recorded the mortgage lien with the clerk of courts. I refinanced in 2008-my name only on mortgage, and both, wife's name & mine on original deed from 2003 (at which time, for what it's worth, we were not married).

    Ok, I also just read that Lousianna clerks are suing 16 banks (including Suntrust) for the same issue, namely accusing banks and MERSCORP of a scheme for collecting the recording fees, but thereafter never recording the note/lien. The costs to townships/ taxpayers is an estimated billion dollar just in Lousiana alone,(MERSCORP is same company was used to record 'release' on previous mortgage...apparently before this scheme was cooked up).

    Since recording fees were of course part of the closing cost when I refinanced while 'digging' about more info on this whole 'deal' I found that all of this can greatly effect me in my planned chapter 7 (filing alone, without spouse), and here is apparently why (from what I read on the 'Bankruptcy Law Network' (quote) :

    "You see, once a Bankruptcy Case is filed, the Automatic Stay goes into effect. Everything is frozen. Mistakes can no longer be corrected. And if the lender did not have the note or recorded assignment when the bankruptcy case was filed, it was an “unperfected lien” at the time of filing. Unperfected liens get removed in Bankruptcy. So finding the note or recording an assignment after filing will no longer fix the problem! Finding the note or or recording an assignment is now simply too late and futile. That $12 shortcut may now have cost the lender a $500,000 mortgage!The Bankruptcy Trustee now is in charge, puts his 11 USC 544 hat on, and voila, removes the mortgage! Yes, that house that once had no equity worth $450,000 with $500,000 owed on it, is now FREE AND CLEAR! He sells it, and disburses all the proceeds to the creditors"

    WHAT ????....Since I intended not to reafirm, but to continue making payments that does NOT follow my plans at all !!!

    *HERE IS WHERE I NEED ANY INPUT YOU CAN COME UP WITH. WHAT WOULD YOU DO ?

    I don't want to move, like the place and the neighborhood and am content with mortgage payment. The house is underwater by $ 30,000 (YES, I know...yikes).

    I am wondering IF a trustee indeed would sell the house (as described in the article above) I would be tempted to buy the place.
    Of course since I don't have credit nor money that's out. However...would my non filing wife, (with halfway decent credit ability to finance ?), be able to buy the place from the trustee at the assessed market value ($78.000) minus any possible small leftovers after paying off creditors, or am I dreaming ?

    ANY other ideas are welcome !

    #2
    I think in most other states that would happen. But doesn't Florida have a near unlimited homestead exemption? This is an excellent question for your lawyer.

    ETA-
    Florida has liberal bankruptcy exemptions, including an unlimited homestead exemption. Only Florida residents (who meet residency requirements) are eligible for Florida exemptions. Just because you are a Florida resident when you file for bankruptcy does not mean you are entitled to Florida exemptions in bankruptcy.

    Under the new bankruptcy law the state exemption law applicable to your bankruptcy is determined by the state in which you have been domiciled for the 730 days (two years) immediately preceding your filing date. If you have not been a permanent resident of Florida for the two-year period immediately preceding your bankruptcy, then your bankruptcy exemptions will be those allowed by the state in which you were domiciled for 180 days immediately preceding the two-year period, or the state in which you were domiciled for the longer portion of such 180-day period.

    Otherwise stated, a person filing bankruptcy in Florida today is eligible for the property exemptions he could have claimed if he had filed bankruptcy two years ago. If this person was a Florida resident two years ago, he claims Florida exemptions today; if two years ago he was a resident of a different state then he is entitled to the exemptions of the state of his prior residence.
    I think the only problem you might run into is qualifying for a 7. If the trustee deems that your mortgage is unsecured through a defective recording, they may also rule that your monthly mortgage payment cannot be used for the means test and try to push you into a CH13. Even then you might still come out ahead. This is something that you really need to discuss with a lawyer, but either way I don't think it would result in you losing your home.
    Last edited by walkthaplank; 05-24-2012, 10:28 PM.

    Comment


      #3
      i don't know if i totally agree that it's too late to fix the problems with the bank if it's the case you are stating. you hear in the news forever and a day how the banks have been allowed to correct the robo signing mess, i think this fits into that type of situation.

      also, does the trustee know this about your mortgage??? we also refin'ed in 2008 and think the chase also didn't record the deed properly, although, we don't know because the house at this moment is not only over 200k underwater, it's actually underwater ...real water that is. we did our bk and surrendered the house so our situation was a bit different.

      i know they say, and i would reach out to des on this question if this may be one of the only exceptions to the rule of not reaffirming one's mortgage. i mean if you reaffirmed it, would it even count if the mortgage was never recorded. also, i have heard trustees have the banks attempt refi's or loan mods before taking the houses to sell. although here in the middle district of florida which is where we now live, these trustees are doing crazy things...absolutely crazy things!!!

      first check with your atty, also pm's des (sorry des) and ask him about your position. i'm sure you know who despritfreya one of the forum's BEST atty's and all around wondrous helpful human. i'm certain he may be able to give you some direction on this situation, or at least i hope.
      8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

      Comment


        #4
        tobee43, I do believe the deed can be fixed before BK but the original poster states that once BK is filed then the bank is SOL.

        OHBOY, I would peruse this relentlessly. Even if you end up in a steep 13 payment it will only be for five years and not the balance of the mortgage.

        I do understand about all the fuss concerning house values, but if you plan to live there for many years it should not be an issue. If you compare a mortgage vs renting you may end up close to even after taxes, so why go through the trouble.
        11/23/'10-filed ch 13. 1/6/'11-341, confirmed. Below median. Plan completed 11/30/2015. DISSCHARGED 4/4/2016.JP

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by spidge View Post
          tobee43, I do believe the deed can be fixed before BK but the original poster states that once BK is filed then the bank is SOL.

          OHBOY, I would peruse this relentlessly. Even if you end up in a steep 13 payment it will only be for five years and not the balance of the mortgage.

          I do understand about all the fuss concerning house values, but if you plan to live there for many years it should not be an issue. If you compare a mortgage vs renting you may end up close to even after taxes, so why go through the trouble.
          __________________________________________________ ________________________


          'spidge' : while I indeed appreciate your input very much, please allow me to comment that 'even if you end up in a steep 13 payment it will only be for five years and not the balance of the mortgage' would not be an acceptable outcome for me. Reason being that I am 81 yrs of age and 'steep payments into a chapter 13 are definately out.
          I think before I allow that to happen, maybe I would encourage my spouse to replace her car which has over 230,000 miles on it (and running fine) to get a new (er) vehicle.....

          I will however contact the title company. As they have a very local and easy to talk to, they may be able to give some advice/suggestions (?)
          Last edited by OHBOY; 05-26-2012, 09:50 AM.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by OHBOY View Post
            __________________________________________________ ________________________


            'spidge' : while I indeed appreciate your input very much, please allow me to comment that 'even if you end up in a steep 13 payment it will only be for five years and not the balance of the mortgage' would not be an acceptable outcome for me. Reason being that I am 81 yrs of age and 'steep payments into a chapter 13 are definately out.
            I think before I allow that to happen, maybe I would encourage my spouse to replace her car which has over 230,000 miles on it (and running fine) to get a new (er) vehicle.....

            I will however contact the title company. As they have a very local and easy to talk to, they may be able to give some advice/suggestions (?)
            Your age sure does add a different view to it all.
            11/23/'10-filed ch 13. 1/6/'11-341, confirmed. Below median. Plan completed 11/30/2015. DISSCHARGED 4/4/2016.JP

            Comment


              #7
              Hello sir!

              Did you file your homestead declaration on this home?

              Also, how is the deed worded? AND, OR, Tenancy by entirety?

              Thank you in advance for your answers.
              Last edited by ValleYum; 05-26-2012, 10:44 AM.
              ~~ Filed Over Median Income Chapter 7: 12/17/2010 ~~ 341 Held: 1/12/2011 ~~ Discharged: 03/16/2011 ~~
              Not an attorney - just an opinionated woman.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by spidge View Post
                tobee43, I do believe the deed can be fixed before BK but the original poster states that once BK is filed then the bank is SOL.

                OHBOY, I would peruse this relentlessly. Even if you end up in a steep 13 payment it will only be for five years and not the balance of the mortgage.

                I do understand about all the fuss concerning house values, but if you plan to live there for many years it should not be an issue. If you compare a mortgage vs renting you may end up close to even after taxes, so why go through the trouble.
                that's excellent advise spidge! that is very good if the mortgage co. is SOL, it's just i hope it doesn't cost the OP an arm, leg and elbow to resolve. but in the long run, it is well worth it.
                8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by ValleYum View Post
                  Hello sir!

                  Did you file your homestead declaration on this home?

                  Also, how is the deed worded? AND, OR, Tenancy by entirety?

                  Thank you in advance for your answers.
                  LOL!!! you are one of the funniest, if not THE funniest smartest people ever did i meet

                  it will truly be amazing how the law will work in some ways for some and other for others.
                  8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                  Comment


                    #10
                    'ValleYum', Hallo mam:

                    Yes, did file homestead declaration a number of years back.

                    Deed was worded: with 'AND' and also 'JOINT TENANTS WITH FULL RIGHTS OF SURVIVORSHIP' (spouse & I were not married at the time)

                    I think I see where you are going with this, and I must say that it makes sense....Thanks!

                    Actually, THANKS TO EVERYBODY !

                    I am going to see a bk attorney next week, and will certainly point all of this out.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I am going to go ahead and type out my hypothesis here, so everyone feel free to critique or add your comments/thoughts.

                      Based on the premise that the mortgage encumbering OHBOY's home is wholly unsecured because the lien was never filed with the county/state:

                      If OHBOY has lived in the home longer than 40 months, then he is entitled to claim homestead protection greater than $146,450 under the new federal residency rules that BAPCA gave us.

                      -AND-

                      If OHBOY made his homestead declaration and filed a certified copy in the public records of the county or state, then he is allowed the benefit of the Florida State Constitution particularly Fla. Stat. Ann. § 222.01 which states: Real or personal property including mobile or modular home to unlimited value; cannot exceed half acre in municipality or 160 acres elsewhere;
                      (emphasis is mine)

                      -AND-

                      If OHBOY files for Chapter 7 bankruptcy

                      -AND-

                      If the assigned Trustee in that case is aware of the unperfected lien, and decides to use his avoiding powers under 11 USC § 544

                      Would OHBOY be entitled to the entire proceeds of the sale of his home less the Trustee's fees for 'using his avoiding powers'?

                      Further, if OHBOY wanted to stay in the home, could he possibly pay the equivalent value of the Trustee's anticipated fees to him (much the same as buying back an asset) and then own the home outright?

                      I now know that OHBOY's wife is on the deed but the trustee would be avoiding the lien not the deed, correct? Could OHBOY's wife Quitclaim deed the house totally to him so that one of the above scenarios above could happen?

                      In order to get a Chapter 7, and be done *AND* be debt free, would it be worth OHBOY's while to move? Because if he got the sales price of his home less the Trustee's fee given to him in cash - couldn't he rent for a bit until he could find and buy an equivalent house with the cash from the sale. BUT, that way he'd still have a housing expense (rent) for the Means Test??

                      Okay, everyone laugh now.

                      I am just tossing ideas around about this situation because it is like a puzzle to me! One of my teachers always encouraged our class to throw out ideas - she said it only takes one of them to eventually stick!

                      Good luck, OHBOY. Please let us know how your attorney consult goes.
                      ~~ Filed Over Median Income Chapter 7: 12/17/2010 ~~ 341 Held: 1/12/2011 ~~ Discharged: 03/16/2011 ~~
                      Not an attorney - just an opinionated woman.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        At 81 - IF I make it that long - I hope to not have as many "ands" in my digestive tract.

                        Will be interesting to see what shakes out here. OHBOY, hats off to you for wading in to these waters.

                        My opinion is that most of our senior population should be able to do a strategic BK about 6 months before retiring...mostly so that they can actually retire.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by btbeme View Post
                          At 81 - IF I make it that long - I hope to not have as many "ands" in my digestive tract.
                          LOL! I know. I think I got carried away (but only out of wanting to help- my heart was in the right place)!
                          ~~ Filed Over Median Income Chapter 7: 12/17/2010 ~~ 341 Held: 1/12/2011 ~~ Discharged: 03/16/2011 ~~
                          Not an attorney - just an opinionated woman.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ValleYum View Post
                            LOL! I know. I think I got carried away (but only out of wanting to help- my heart was in the right place)!
                            as it ALWAYS is
                            8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Ohboy,

                              I just saw this thread and now I understand why you sent the PM. There is a very simple solution since you have not filed bk as of today. Get the lender to record the mortgage and then wait 91 days from the date of recording to file bk. Assuming Florida does not have a statute that covers when a lender can record its mortgage lien, if it records now the lender is properly perfected and if you wait 91 days from the recording date the recording is outside the preference period. Once outside the preference period the 7 Trustee has no say in the matter. Please note: I make reference to Fl law because some states require a lender to file the lien within a short period of time after closing. After that date passes the lender cannot record. I do not know if Fl has such a law.

                              Yalle Yum,

                              Your thought process is good but unless the problem is fixed the homestead will not protect Ohboy. The Trustee steps into the shoes of the "hypothetical" lien holder and the lien is preserved for the benefit of the estate. Since the lien would have been a "consensual" lien had the bank recorded it, it is presumed "consensual" for the estate and is ahead of any exemption.

                              Des.

                              Comment

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