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    #16
    You lost your house - but you still have to pay......

    Former homeowners may still be on the hook if there's a difference between what they owed on their mortgage and what the bank could sell it for at auction. And these "deficiency judgments" are ticking time bombs that can explode years after borrowers lose their homes.

    It can even happen to people who got their bank to approve them selling their home for less than it is worth.

    Vanessa Corey, for example, short sold her Fredericksburg, Va., home in April 2008. She and her husband built the house in 2004, but setbacks, both personal (divorce) and professional (housing bust), made it impossible for the real estate agent to keep her home. So she negotiated the short sale and thought that was the end of it.

    "My understanding was that the deficiency was negotiated away," she said. "Then, last November, I got a letter from a lawyer telling me I owed my lender $65,000. I had to declare bankruptcy. There was no way I could pay it."
    Where the foreclosure plague is spreading

    Many homeowners are now in the same boat. And not just those who took out bigger loans than they could afford or who did so called "liar loans" where they didn't have to verify their income.

    Because of falling home prices, borrowers who always paid their mortgage but who have run into unforeseen circumstances -- like unemployment or a job transfer -- can no longer sell their homes for what they owe. As a result, they are being forced to short sell or foreclose and are getting caught up in deficiency judgments.

    "After the banks foreclose, it's very common now to have large deficiencies with houses not worth the balances owed," said Don Lampe, a North Carolina real estate attorney.

    Lenders mostly declined comment. Although Corey's lender, BB&T did indicate it was pursuing more deficiency judgments.

    "They follow the rise and fall of foreclosures," said the spokeswoman, who would not discuss Corey's account.
    Can they come after you?

    Whether banks can and will pursue deficiency judgments depends on many factors, including what state the borrower lives in and whether there's a second mortgage or other liens. But if borrowers ignore the possibility of deficiencies, it could haunt them.

    "Once they have a judgment, they can pursue you anywhere," said Richard Zaretsky, a board-certified real estate attorney in West Palm Beach, Fla. "They can ask for financial records, have your wages garnished and, if you fail to respond, a judge can put you in jail."

    In the case of foreclosure, lenders can pursue deficiencies in more than 30 states, including Florida, New York and Texas, according to the U.S. Foreclosure Network, an organization of mortgage law firms.

    Some states, such as California, are "non-recourse" and don't allow deficiency judgments. But, even there, if the original loan was refinanced, some or all of it may be subject to claims.
    Check the foreclosure rate in your state

    Deficiency judgments on short sales and deeds-in-lieu can happen in many more places. In these cases, extinguishing the debt is often a matter of negotiating with the bank.

    But even when lenders are willing, many borrowers may not be aware that they have to ask for release. So, if you are pursuing a short sale, be sure your attorney asks the bank to release you from any further obligation.

    "People shouldn't have a false sense of security that a deficiency judgment may not be later sought," Zaretsky said.

    He expects many will be filed over the next few years, based on the fact that banks have sold many of these accounts to collection agencies and other third parties, at discount.

    "The parties who bought those notes wouldn't have paid money for them unless they had the intention of acting," Zaretsky said.
    Ticking time bomb

    What can be scary is that the judgments don't have to be obtained immediately. Lenders or collection agencies may wait until debtors have recovered financially before they swoop in. In Florida, the bank can wait up to five years to file. Once the court grants a judgment, the lender has 20 years there to collect, with interest.

    It doesn't have to be a large amount of debt for a lender or collection agency to come after borrowers. Richard Varno and his wife short sold their Nashville home back in 2004 after he lost his job.

    It wasn't until 2008, when the second lien holder asked him for $25,000, that he realized he still was liable.

    "I told them, 'Hey, you guys released the title,'" he said. "As far as I know, I'm off the hook."

    He wasn't. Releasing title does not necessarily end the debt. It's complicated because of variations in state law, but, generally, a mortgage has two parts: a pledge of collateral, represented by the home, and a promise to pay off the loan.

    Lenders may release property liens in order to facilitate short sales without releasing borrowers from their obligations to pay under the promissory notes. The secured debt can convert to an unsecured one after the sale.

    Zaretsky had one client who was so relieved to have arranged a short sale that he signed every paper his real estate agent shoved at him, even a confession that clearly stated he still owed the debt.

    "He had no idea what he was doing," said Zaretsky. "All the lender had to do was go to court to convert the confession into a deficiency judgment."

    Lenders are also very inconsistent. One of Zaretsky's short-sale clients was ready, willing and able to pay, but the bank did not even ask; another lender always reserves the right to pursue the deficiency.
    Strategic defaults

    Sometimes lenders go after borrowers walking away from their homes if they have other assets, according to Florida real estate attorney Larry Tolchinsky.

    "Banks are pulling credit reports to see if it's a strategic default," he said. "If you're behind on all your other payments, you're okay. But if you're not, they'll come after you."

    If borrowers have any doubts about their risks, they should seek legal advice. Or, at least, call non-profit organizations such as NeighborWorks for advice. According to Doug Robinson, a NeighborWorks spokesman, its counselors always try to negotiate away deficiencies when they facilitate short sales or deeds-in-lieu.

    "We don't favor any short-sale contracts that leave any deficiency that can be pursued," he said.

    Robinson himself knows what can happen. He paid off a deficiency after his own New Jersey house went through foreclosure 11 years ago.

    Foreclosed borrowers may still be on the hook when there's a difference between what they owe and the value of the properties they've given up, a growing problem.


    unless you qualify under the act as insolvent the banks will and are pursuing. and, i'm NOT referring to one's tax liability. while there may be none, a bank may still, indeed attempt to go after someone.





    and more on florida:


    Clermont Deficiency Judgment Lawyers.......

    When the Value of the Property Falls Short of the Mortgage Balance

    Some states provide for strict foreclosure, meaning that a foreclosing lender's recovery of the property securing a mortgage loan cuts off any further right to payment on the debt. Florida is not one of them. In the sharply fallen real estate markets that have characterized our area for the last several years, it is common for the current value of residential real estate to fall substantially short of the mortgage balance owed. The owner has no equity in the property, and the lender faces a loss upon resale under any circumstances.

    In this situation, the lender has the right to pursue the borrower for a deficiency judgment, or an order to pay the difference between the proceeds of sale or liquidation and the outstanding balance of the mortgage.

    This right is negotiable, however, and is also vulnerable in bankruptcy. (yet not impossible as what happened to at least 3 people in the middle district of florida...right or wrong it still happened!).


    If you need advice about your options for resolving the problems presented by actual or potential liability on a mortgage deficiency......read on...http://www.floridafinancialhelp.com/...udgments.shtml
    Last edited by tobee43; 04-06-2012, 04:14 PM.
    8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

    Comment


      #17
      Mike,

      Yes, we could still be living there, if we wanted. There is no chance of anyone coming after you for a deficiency, regardless of what others claim above. It is federal law, in the BK code, and is simply not possible. I think the poster is confusing state foreclosure laws with federal BK laws. For instance, if you were to have a foreclosure, but NOT file BK, the bank could (they don't always) come after you for the difference. This is only important for people going through foreclosure who cannot or choose not to file BK.

      Now, your situation is slightly different than what mine has been. Your lender, GreenTree, is the most aggressive lender I have encountered in terms of foreclosure. I speak from firsthand knowledge. My wife is a Realtor. Her and her partner handle foreclosures for GreenTree, which moves very, very fast, compared to other lenders. One of the reasons for this is that GreenTree was founded on the basis of lending primarily on mobile homes. Mobile homes for a number of reasons, are subject to much faster depreciation, and the lender has to foreclose quickly to assure they maximize their return.

      I am sorry to say, but if you are in Florida middle, there is a very good chance my wife and her partner will be selling your property. I am truly sorry about that, but they didn't get into the business to handle foreclosures. It's just that that there are more foreclosures as a percentage than any other segment and they already had a longterm relationship with GreenTree.

      Your foreclosure is likely to be very quick, for these reasons.

      Do not worry about deficiency, though, if you are filing BK. If you have not already filed, one thing you CAN do is wait until the day or two before the hearing for final judgment and THEN file BK. This will buy you a month or three. It will still proceed, but you will have some extra time.

      Also, don't worry about a tax hit. There is some confusion on this matter, as well. You simply file a form stating you are insolvent with the IRS and the tax bill, if you even get one, disappears.

      One final request, and not meant to assume anything about you or imply anything: Please do not destroy the property, deface it, or remove things like light fixtures, carpet and so on. This does NOT hurt the bank. They simply write it off as part of their loss. And though it might benefit you in some way, especially if you are angry or frustrated, it really hurts one person in particular: My wife. Damage to a home reduces the price and desirability and hits us in the pocketbook every time. There really is no one else it hurts, at all. The new buyer will pay less and adjust their offer based on the condition of the house. The bank gets a write-off. And the Realtor gets screwed. She works on a commission only basis, and we are barely scraping buy. It is a terrible time to be in real estate sales here.

      Now, understand, I do not know you, so am not implying you would do such a thing. THis is mostly for others who might read this later, and hopefully understand it a little better.

      Best wishes to you. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific things I can answer about GreenTree in Florida Middle.

      DMC
      11-20-09-- Filed Chapter 7
      12-23-09-- 341 Meeting-Early Christmas Gift?
      3-9-10--Discharged

      Comment


        #18
        Thanks for all of the input on this. I really appreciate the help. This gives me alot to chew on.

        I think the info that tobee43 posted really grinds home the fact that if you do complete a short sale (without bankruptcy), you need to be 100% certain that the lender releases you from the debt, not just the title.

        Thank for the info on Greentree, DeadManCrawling. That really confirms my suspicions on them. Bank of America must really be psychic. The second I had my first fleeting thought about not paying the mortgage, I get turned over to Greentree. Yeah, I wouldn't deface the place. Your wife will really like the Andersen sliding glass door I installed in the back though. Not to mention the home network. Geez, talk about putting thousand dollar rims on a Pinto!

        I'm in a really bad position because I have a business involved. (I posted about this in the ch7 sub-forum.) With the business, I am finally seeing light at the end of the tunnel. After years of purchasing product from other distributors, I've finally finagled my way into a relationship with the manufacturer. Of course their prices are much lower and I can compete much better now. Well to throw a monkey wrench, I signed a personal guarantee with said manufacturer. So if I file ch7, they will receive notice and the relationship will be ruined. I'll be back in the dark ages as far as the business is concerned. This is the one factor that might keep me from filing ch7 in the end.

        I met with an attorney a month ago. I was under the impression that he would look at the fact that Countrywide tripled my stated income on the final application without my knowledge - and use that to void the contract. As I recall from the contracts section of college business law classes, if somebody commits a fraudulent act such as what Countrywide did, the contract would be either void or voidable. (I forgot which is which.) But the attorney was more interested in selling me on a ch7. I never even considered that. So I had my chance to ask him anything I wanted during the free consultation. But I had nothing at the time. Anyway, one thing he did tell me is that as far as mortgage companies in Florida pursuing defaulters is concerned, he is seeing about 5% to 10% of "walkers" being pursued. And that was mostly very large judgments in the quarter mil range at least. I am about $50,000 underwater right now. With attorney fees and admin costs, I'd probably be looking at $100,000. Odds are, they wouldn't pursue me. But that is a huge risk to take and have hanging over my head for 5 years. So if I look at it that way, ruining my business for a few months is probably a smaller price to pay. Then again, if I file ch7 now, that is it. I can't do it again. My business will be shot and I'll be relying on my night pizza delivery job to get me by. I am looking for a job in my field, but that can take months. Of course the best time to file ch7 might be right now, while I know I am broke. If the business does start thriving, adding the fact that I won't be paying a mortgage, I will probably save alot of money, which would be forked over in the ch7 if I wait. But if I do file ch7 now, the business will be kaput and I won't have the money to fork over anyway. I think I just went full circle here. Sorry about that! Oh well. I think things are pretty well laid out for me. I just have to make up my mind now. Thanks for listening!

        Oh, I do have one question. If Fannie Mae is the owner of the note, would they be the pursuers of judgment as well? Or would that be Greentree? Something tells me Greentree would be more aggressive.

        Thanks again! Sorry to stray off topic.
        MikeW
        Filed Ch7 - July 19, 2012
        Discharged and Closed - October 19, 2012

        Comment


          #19
          freddie mac, fannie etc. as we know are all "suppose" to be government back loans. right?? so that, at least one would think give the bank an alternative to collect on the outstanding balance of the mortage...(we had an FHA with PMI). didn't matter. when researched what i found out about these government backed loans is that, the lender must first go through the foreclosure proceeding prior to filing any claim with the government. what is so odd, is the banks are simply not doing it.

          how it's "suppose" to work is the bank is to attempt or do their due diligence to collect the balance and then put in their claim to collect. i don't think if it were boa, chase, citi, wells or any of them it would really change the government requirements to collect on a loan backed by them, no matter which lender holds the actual paper.

          mike you have a lot on your plate. i know it's difficult, but is it possible to leave your business out it? i'm sorry i didn't read the other thread about the business. also, what if you did go 7 and then start a new business? is that possible in your case? can't you go to that one business relationship where you signed a personal guarantee with said manufacturer, and be straight with them? you may be surprised at how they handle the situation. i mean, actually, what do you have to lose? (a rhetorical questions of course).

          and once again, i must stress, one does not have to be concerned about any tax ramifications the 1099A's are issued for the banks loss, not yours. one just attaches a form 982 and it's fine. that's not the problem at all with these situations. it's what left that the nice banks send to the 3rd party collectors here in florida, not that they are correct in doing so, it's just a nightmare that's all.
          Last edited by tobee43; 04-07-2012, 11:31 AM.
          8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by tobee43 View Post
            freddie mac, fannie etc. as we know are all "suppose" to be government back loans. right?? so that, at least one would think give the bank an alternative to collect on the outstanding balance of the mortage...(we had an FHA with PMI). didn't matter. when researched what i found out about these government backed loans is that, the lender must first go through the foreclosure proceeding prior to filing any claim with the government. what is so odd, is the banks are simply not doing it.

            how it's "suppose" to work is the bank is to attempt or do their due diligence to collect the balance and then put in their claim to collect. i don't think if it were boa, chase, citi, wells or any of them it would really change the government requirements to collect on a loan backed by them, no matter which lender holds the actual paper.

            mike you have a lot on your plate. i know it's difficult, but is it possible to leave your business out it? i'm sorry i didn't read the other thread about the business. also, what if you did go 7 and then start a new business? is that possible in your case? can't you go to that one business relationship where you signed a personal guarantee with said manufacturer, and be straight with them? you may be surprised at how they handle the situation. i mean, actually, what do you have to lose? (a rhetorical questions of course).

            and once again, i must stress, one does not have to be concerned about any tax ramifications the 1099A's are issued for the banks loss, not yours. one just attaches a form 982 and it's fine. that's not the problem at all with these situations. it's what left that the nice banks send to the 3rd party collectors here in florida, not that they are correct in doing so, it's just a nightmare that's all.
            Thanks tobee43. So Greentree it is then. Unfortunately, the business can't be left out of the picture. I did notice the sticky post in the Exemptions sub-forum, mentioning tools of the trade. I haven't had the chance to research that yet. But it's probably the next thing I look at.
            Filed Ch7 - July 19, 2012
            Discharged and Closed - October 19, 2012

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by MikeW View Post
              Thanks tobee43. So Greentree it is then. Unfortunately, the business can't be left out of the picture. I did notice the sticky post in the Exemptions sub-forum, mentioning tools of the trade. I haven't had the chance to research that yet. But it's probably the next thing I look at.
              your welcome.

              yes, i would check it out and see which is the very best way for you to go. also, if i were you, i would attend a few more "free" consults just to get a good idea about what an atty thinks about the situation in it's entirety. again, it's so much to think about.
              8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

              Comment


                #22
                Mike,

                EDITED: TO ADD. I think I found your post, and will see if I can offer ideas there. Thanks.

                If you are still reading this topic, please post a link to your business related post. I ask this because I brought my business through ch 7 in Florida and didn't lose a thing. We are a primarily service oriented business but did have equipment that, to a person in the same business, would have been worth a substantial amount. We used a number of specific methods and laws to protect everything. I won't go into all of it here, because some may not apply, but I would be interested in seeing your post so I can offer suggestions that may help.

                CH 7 does not automatically mean you are out of business. There are legal ways to plan for it and let the business survive so you have something to make an income on the other side of BK. It worked for us and was all within the law. It made our lives much easier, preserved our main source of income, and no customers or vendors were even aware of the BK. All a matter of following the right laws and knowing how to structure the matter. Also, a business knowledgeable BK attorney may help. We handled the business details on our own, but had a normal BK attorney for the general household filing.

                Best to you,

                DMC
                11-20-09-- Filed Chapter 7
                12-23-09-- 341 Meeting-Early Christmas Gift?
                3-9-10--Discharged

                Comment


                  #23
                  Hi Staci! I was perusing this forum and ran across this post. So, re: google voice - did you give the creditors the new GV #? Or did you just use your own #? I looked it up yesterday and it seems you need to link it to a #. We were trying to forward calls coming into our home to GV. Can that be done? Also, do you know if creditors have to stop calling you after you file or after discharge? TIA!

                  Comment


                    #24
                    I don't have a home phone, so I set up GV to use my existing cell #. I also was already into collections, etc. when I did this - so it was a bit late to change my # with creditors. I am able to control my voicemail/phone settings thru Google's website. First I set 'unknown' callers to go straight to voicemail. They don't even ring on my phone. Then I created a friends & family group, created a contact list of #s to add to it, and made this group setting so they ring my phone like normal. Anyone else - not in my f&f group and not 'unknown' - are screened. When John Doe at 404-777-5555 calls me for example they get a response to announce their name. When I answer (and I do see the # on my caller ID still) it plays the name and I have the option to press 1 to accept or press 2 to send to VM. I can still listen in, while they're leaving a message, and press * to answer the call in the middle of their message.

                    Every now & then I need to go back to the website and add more #s to the F&F list, so they ring right thru without me having to press 1. I also created another group for collectors. So when a new collector # calls, I go online and add it to that group. That group is also set to go directly to voicemail. Oh - for voicemail you can have a different greeting for each group. So I have a regular greeting for F&F that go to voicemail. And for the collectors group, I have a detailed message: you have reached Staci XXXX, of 123 Main St, Anywhere USA. That way they know they've reached the right person, and that they have the right street address for me since I have not moved in almost 10 years, and they don't have any reason to call friends & family to 'locate' me. Legally, that is the only reason collectors are allowed to call friends & family. So if they've already 'located' you then they're not supposed to.

                    It also saves my text messages where I can read them online, and converts my voice messages to text. I can still call in and listen to messages by phone of course. The voicemail to text is a little funny - it doesn't always get it quite right. One other detail - if I leave my phone at home or something (we've all done that before) I can log into Google Voice on the web and see if I've had any texts or missed calls. I can even send texts from the Google Voice website.

                    PS-the automatic stay prevents collection activity once you file. There may be a few days lag though between when you file & when creditors get notice. So after you file, if you get a call, tell them you've filed, tell them the chapter, and give the case #. Likely you'll get very few though.
                    ~Staci
                    Not an attorney, and never played one on tv. My responses are based on my own experiences & personal opinions.)

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Awesome! Thanks for the detailed response Staci! Will set up different groups on GV. Glad to know we can answer phone now too Thanks again!

                      Comment

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