New job within 60 days of filing ???

[gak555]

If someone is unemployed for 2 or 3 of the 6 months prior to filing for bankruptcy and they qualify to file chapter 7 what happens if the person lands a good , well paying job 1 or 2 months after filing which would bring them over the median income. Will this come back to haunt them ?

[no_it_all]

No

[SinkingFast]

If someone is unemployed for 2 or 3 of the 6 months prior to filing for bankruptcy and they qualify to file chapter 7 what happens if the person lands a good , well paying job 1 or 2 months after filing which would bring them over the median income. Will this come back to haunt them ?

Just to be on the safe side, you might discuss this with your attny.

It shouldn't be a problem. Especially if it occured after your 341 Meeting. The problem with the New Law is, it's not only a snap shot in time of the recent past, the New Law looks toward the future as well. Hence the question about anticipated, significant (10% or more) increases in income.

The day you filed set your BK Estate in the eyes of the Court. And, at that moment, you didn't honestly have any prospect for a significant increase in income. This is a situation that just happened at this particular moment in time for you.

Whether or not a new job would be a problem will depend on the Trustee. Some Trustees go with what was filed and that's it. Other Trustees are SOB's and stick it to people because there was a change within the 90-120 days between filing and discharge.

Run this by your attny. The attny knows the Court and the people he/she's dealing with. The attny will know if a new job will be a problem or not.

[no_it_all]

<snip> what happens if the person lands a good , well paying job 1 or 2 months after filing which would bring them over the median income. Will this come back to haunt them ?

Do you mean over the median wage for your state or failing the Means Test? They are not necessarily one in the same. You can make well over the median and still pass the Means Test with some careful Pre-Bankruptcy planning. I assume that since you are referencing a Chapter 7 filing you might be looking at the median income and freaking out a little bit because you <might> get a higher paying job before the BK is finalized. Well, I am pretty sure the court isn't all that interested in what <might> happen. After all, someone that failed the Means Test could use the same argument in the other direction, i.e., their wages <might> be lower in several months. My gut (and brain) tell me don't worry. Unless of course you already have something lined up!!!

[SinkingFast]

Do you mean over the median wage for your state or failing the Means Test? They are not necessarily one in the same. You can make well over the median and still pass the Means Test with some careful Pre-Bankruptcy planning. I assume that since you are referencing a Chapter 7 filing you might be looking at the median income and freaking out a little bit because you <might> get a higher paying job before the BK is finalized. Well, I am pretty sure the court isn't all that interested in what <might> happen. After all, someone that failed the Means Test could use the same argument in the other direction, i.e., their wages <might> be lower in several months. My gut (and brain) tell me don't worry. Unless of course you already have something lined up!!!

There isn't much wiggle room on the Median unless you have some certain types of offsets to your income. Like Priority Debts for child support payments, IRS back taxes payments, and such.

Having a car payment on a relatively new, 5 year loan may buy you a bit of wiggle room. But even the Courts have limits on what they'll accept in the way of a car payment. Just ask Lost. His attny won't take his $690/mo car payment into BK. The Court won't allow it.

And if the Court wasn't looking down the road about income, why the "Do you expect a significant increase or decrease in your income?" question??

No,............. You are giving people BAD advice that could cause them to have their BK's dismissed and/or worse.

You don't know what you're talking about and you should stop giving advise!

[no_it_all]

There isn't much wiggle room on the Median unless you have some certain types of offsets to your income. Like Priority Debts for child support payments, IRS back taxes payments, and such.

Ok, help us out here PLEASE!! If as you stated above, there isn't much "wriggle room" UNLESS you have these certain types of debts, then if you DO have those certain types of debt is there "more wriggle room"? Keep following we need help here! OK, so now we have those certain types of debts. BINGO!! we now pass the Means Test even though our income is over the median!! And we did it with a pretty good amount of "wriggle room", since these were those "certain types" "and such" debts.. Good! you agree with me!!

Having a car payment on a relatively new, 5 year loan may buy you a bit of wiggle room. But even the Courts have limits on what they'll accept in the way of a car payment. Just ask Lost. His attny won't take his $690/mo car payment into BK. The Court won't allow it.

no, No, NO! You are confusing EVERYONE!! Who cares if you can "take a $690 payment into bankruptcy" (what does THAT mean? LOL). The post is referencing form B22A, also known as the Statement Of Current Monthly Income and Means Test Calculation. Do you understand what that is?? Have you ever even filled one out?? It is where you list your secured claims..to wit: Auto Loans. It doesn't make a ANY difference if the payment is 690 dollars or not, it is still listed on line 42 and calculated. Are you telling everyone that a car payment of $690 dollars is "not allowed" in a bankruptcy because "Lost" couldn't do it?? (BTW, what <exactly> does "not allowed" mean???) What a JOKE !!! The Means Test Calculator GIVES you about $750 in ownership costs and expenses for ONE car. Have a second car? The kitty goes up to over A THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!

And if the Court wasn't looking down the road about income, why the "Do you expect a significant increase or decrease in your income?" question??

So that someone doesn't take a leave of absence from their job, go bankrupt using the numbers from their reduced income and then showing up at work a year later. That is called FRAUD !!! Filing BK and getting a better paying job three months later is called GOOD LUCK which is not fraud.

No,............. You are giving people BAD advice that could cause them to have their BK's dismissed and/or worse.

You don't know what you're talking about and you should stop giving advise!

Ok, this is REALLY bugging me...for about the third time in a post you wrote "advise" the WORD IS "ADVICE" sheesh!!!

[no_it_all]

Try this: Download a Copy of form B22A...Print it out...Play around with it. Get a good feel for how it works...Experiment a little. Pop in different numbers and see what happens..It could be very educational!

[no_it_all]

Having a car payment on a relatively new, 5 year loan may buy you a bit of wiggle room.

Time for a test: See if you can figure this out. NO CHEATING. I will post the answer later...

Part 1. Jack lives in Boston and has one car. His payment is $690.00 per month/60 months. He has made nineteen payments. How much can Jack claim on form B 22A for vehicle operation, transportation, and ownership costs?

Part 2. I dunno yet..gotta figure out a Part II

[SinkingFast]

no, No, NO! You are confusing EVERYONE!! Who cares if you can "take a $690 payment into bankruptcy" (what does THAT mean? LOL). The post is referencing form B22A, also known as the Statement Of Current Monthly Income and Means Test Calculation. Do you understand what that is?? Have you ever even filled one out?? It is where you list your secured claims..to wit: Auto Loans. It doesn't make a ANY difference if the payment is 690 dollars or not, it is still listed on line 42 and calculated. Are you telling everyone that a car payment of $690 dollars is "not allowed" in a bankruptcy because "Lost" couldn't do it?? (BTW, what <exactly> does "not allowed" mean???) What a JOKE !!! The Means Test Calculator GIVES you about $750 in ownership costs and expenses for ONE car. Have a second car? The kitty goes up to over A THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!

Well, I went for another attorney consultation yesterday. This one charged me $250 even though it was for the initial consult.

This was only my second consultation because I was so bothered by the first one I had that it took me two months to find another one that I was willing to go see.

Most of the ones that I was able to find were "high voulme" bankruptcy attorneys... one attorney firms with offices in strip malls over the top of Chineese restaurants.

This attorney I found is part of a firm with 5 attorneys in a nice office in a nice location. Bankruptcy is only one of the services they offer and not the most common. The attorney I'm working with represents both debtors and creditors as well as Trustees. He is a past Trustee himself and knows most of the trustees and judges personally.

The first attorney I spoke with asked me two questions, "how much do you make" and "how much do you owe". Then said, forget a chapter 7, you'll have to do a chapter 13 with a $500-$750 per month payment. He never looked up my median income, he hadn't even asked what my expenses were. When we finally did get to expenses... he complained that most of my expenses were too high... for instance he said that my food budget should be around $500/month. Yeah, right... I have 4 kids. A $500/month budget wouldn't even pay for the mac N cheese.

Anyway, the new attorney interviewed me for nearly two hours, writing down everything into a prepared form that they use to organize bk information. During this interview, when I mentioned wanting to get a chapter 7 if at all possible... he said, "well, we need to get all the information first, then we'll be able to figure out what you qualify for and what I think we'll be able to get through the trustee and judge." Once we were done, he looked at everthing and said, well, I don't see any reason why you can't get a chapter 7. Nothing in your expenses is out of line (except he said $90/month for tivo/cable was too much). He said that in my inventory valuation that I valued most things too high if they were "average" items and not antiques or collectables or had something else that made them worth more than the average for similar used items.

He said he can't promise me that we can get a chapter 7, but that there shouldn't be a problem. He needs to go over the information in more detail and then will make a final determination. He said that, since he's been a trustee, knows the current trustees and represents some of the current trustees... what he does when putting together a bk filing is "put on his trustee hat" and think about "how can I get this guy" while looking through our filing. He said that he has had clients forced to convert to chapter 13... but not many and he didn't think we'd be in danger of that.

He also did say that my Yukon is going to have to go... he said he could probably get a reaffirmation on it past the judge... but that he wouldn't feel comfortable signing off on it due to the $670/month payment. So oh well, I can live with that even though it'll worry me having an older vehicle with a lot more miles which will be what I'm sure we'll end up with.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling, but this meeting was SOOOOOO much better than the other one I had... definitely worth the $250 fee... which applys towards the Chapter 7 fees if/when we retain him.

So, now we're going to stop paying all payments to the unsecured creditors so we can save up the cash to pay the retainer... and then file. I hope to file by the beginning of May. He told me that if we gave him a partial retainer... like another $300 in addition to the $250 I've already paid, he'd get started on getting the paperwork filled out (or rather the computer file built, since it's filed online, not via paper). And also that at that point he'd let us tell our creditors to call him instead of bugging us. his quote on the creditors, "Don't worry, no creditor can 'out rude' ME!"

I can't believe how much better I feel, just knowing that things can move forward and that I feel I have an attorney that will work for ME rather than take the easiest path.

Contrary to what you read and believe you think you know, if and when you do actually see an attny, the attny is gonna set some boundaries on your expenses.

If you spend more than the Court in your area is used to seeing for cell phone, all the attny is gonna claim is what the Court is used to seeing. If your cell phone bill is $150/mo and the Court is used to seeing $100/mo max, that's all your attny is gonna claim as an expense. $100/mo.

And as you can see from the quote above, Lost's attny told him/her that their car payment was too much. The Court would not allow it. The car would have to go.

You really are in denile. And I don't mean Egypt.

Oh excuse me. You like for every word to be spelled correctly. That's right. I did read that as well.

Denial.

[SinkingFast]

Time for a test: See if you can figure this out. NO CHEATING. I will post the answer later...

Part 1. Jack lives in Boston and has one car. His payment is $690.00 per month/60 months. He has made nineteen payments. How much can Jack claim on form B 22A for vehicle operation, transportation, and ownership costs?

Part 2. I dunno yet..gotta figure out a Part II

He's gonna get roughly $475/month as an allowable expense for the car payment portion. Really depends on the principal balance and the interest rate of the loan amortized out over 60 months. But that's gonna be a fair ball park guesstimate.

[SinkingFast]

Try this: Download a Copy of form B22A...Print it out...Play around with it. Get a good feel for how it works...Experiment a little. Pop in different numbers and see what happens..It could be very educational!

Too late for that suggestion.

I was doing that back in January. And then again in February when the new numbers came out.

[Minnymouth]

No it all,

You fail to remind members that during the bankruptcy process THEY ARE UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE COURT AND THE TRUSTEE UNTIL AFTER DISCHARGE!!! Any and all financial income, new debts, or transactions can be at discretion of the Court. New debt obtained during bankruptcy, selling of property etc. can result in dismissal.

A persons wages increasing or decreasing during the bankruptcy process DOES HAVE AN IMPACT on their case..... And when a Trustee ask at the 341 meeting "has there been a change in your income?" - they best be telling him either way!! Let a Trustee find out that it's not been reported and the case can be dismissed. If a person inherits, wins the lottery, or obtains a job that would pay a great deal more then that is income...... and money that a Trustee can take to pay creditors in either form of bankrutpcy. Normally though if a person gets a pay raise or obtains a better job, the Trustee will not bother anything.

To suggest to members to THINK OTHERWISE is misleading on your part. An increase in salary in a Chapter 7 has little affect because of liquidation , but a salary increase in a Chapter 13 does have an impact on the disposable income.

NOTE: You need to start you your own thread if you want to have a battle of "words and wits" with other members. I'm sure the person who started this thread did not appreciate you taking it over.

BY THE WAY - You got a brother named Lightening????

[aa06a47]

What we all have to understand is that there are bk rules and local bk rules. What happens with one trustee and one court may be different than another trustee/court, and when there are more than one trustee, I think it even varies inside the same court system. I'm sure if your in southern california, the trustee/court wouldn't bat an eye brow at a 690/month car payment, while one in Little Rock ARK would say holey cow Bill, your can't spend that much on that limo.

That, IMO, is why people shouldn't take everything I or anybody else says as the gospel, especially when it comes to allowable expenses.

[SinkingFast]

Lost is in New Jersey. And I was surprised that his payment wouldn't be accepted there. $500/mo is nothing for a newer truck or SUV in the midwest. With costs higher on the coasts, I didn't see that $670/mo would be out of line.

But, what some people don't stop to think about is the attny's personal liability under the New Law. When that attny said he/she wasn't comfortable taking Lost's car payment in, he/she didn't wanna be liable, translate that fined, by the Court.

[no_it_all]

Well, if you think these two sentences have the same meanings, don't EVER take the Miller Anthology Test....trust me!

His attny won't take his $690/mo car payment into BK. The Court won't allow it.

he said he could probably get a reaffirmation on it past the judge... but that he wouldn't feel comfortable signing off

Now, please LISTEN carefully! You can learn something today!! Obviously you have read LostOne0069's post. BUT, your interpretation is incorrect.

How do I know that? Because you posted your interpretation! The "problem" with LostOne0069's car payment wasn't entirely due to the dollar amount. It is also a function of how much INCOME there is!! To wit: If the income was higher, the attorney would feel reasonably sure that continued payments would be made, and made in a timely manner. To read that post, and conclude that "the court wouldn't allow it" is a HUGE leap of (il)logic. The COURT NEVER DECIDED !! THE ATTORNEY DID!!

Now before you come back with another incredibly poorly written and researched post, be aware of this:
EVERY Law school in the country requires the LSAT (Law School Admissions Test). That exam measures a students competence in abilty areas that are ESSENTIAL to someone studying the law. Do you happen to know what those abilities are and what the LSAT tests for? Of course you don't..so I will tell you:
1. Reading Comprehension
2. Analytical Reasoning (Logic games)
3. Logical Reasoning
If those abilities are in short supply it DOSEN'T mean that person cannot post on a BK forum. But, if it is evidenced by writing strange and disconnected posts that the individual IS lacking certain skills in these arenas, then they should not feel obligated or bound in any way to try and "trump" posts of those that do have those essential skills...Believe it or not, someplace, somewhere, there is someone smarter than you (and me). I guess in English what I am trying to say is that you are probably a really nice older lady, and please don't feel like you have to keep up with me..you can't. I have two graduate degrees, one in Engineering and one in Education (go figure). Some of your recent posts are really getting wacky and you run the danger of losing credibilty as it relates to technical questions. Warm and fuzzy? Yeah, you got those posts covered, and they are important also...so peace out and think about what I have written...