No Way we could file 7!? Think Again!!!

[alorth]

BTW, moe...your location says Massachusetts, and I'm in Michigan....so I'd say costs of living are definitely cheaper here than on the East Coast. That could explain some of the difference in Montessori costs.

I did a few Means Tests myself before deciding on an attorney, but you're really just guessing at a lot of things when you do them yourself, even when the program is computerized, or you do the online version that's available.

I'm just gonna put my faith in my attorney that he knows what we can truly count as a legitimate expense on the Means Test, and what we cannot. Its what we're paying him for....he knows the lay of the legal land around here. I searched hard for the "right attorney", and even had some questions about this fellow we settled on, but after spending 4 hours in his office with HIM, not a paralegal, but he himself, I know I made the right decision.

[Charlie777]

I'm with the folks telling you wo rely on your attorney. I was significantly over median, and barely got past the means test. My attorney had a specialized practice in BK and spends all his working hours practicing BK in my circuit. He navigated the situation for me and got me a no-asset discharge with no extra proceedings.

Each circuit is going to be different. Satisfy yourself that you have the right attorney and work with him or her!

[moe]

Sorry, I"m writing on this thread because this is really my issue--we could qualify for a 7 but I think it's going to be a squeaker and I'm not sure what to do about that.

I have been doing the means test and after really figuring stuff out, I am realizing that my budget is not wrong--we really are broke. I was trying to figure out why the means test keeps putting us over so much when we actually never have money and our (reasonable, frugal) budget confirms we are really on the edge and then realized I forgot some things.

I noticed some stuff on the means test that makes that make more sense--like daycare costs. Part time daycare for my child is $600.

But I have a question--do you know how much you are allowed for home maintenance? Will that be an acceptable deduction? We've got a really old house with a lot of upkeep needs.

It's a 2 family house so I was wondering about 'business expenses' under the rent we get. How much can we put for that? Is there a standard figure for rental property?

I realize a lawyer will figure this all out at some point but it would be so great to go in knowing what I know because I heard such different things from lawyers. We definitely could have done a Chapter 7 when we went to see a lawyer in the past but for some reason they didn't seem to know that. This may be because it is very hard to get your Chapter 7 through and so they prefer to do a 13. But it's frustrating because I really think we DO qualify even though we are over median.

One lawyer I talked to, I was trying to see if he would go on the last 6 months of income and he was really pushing us into a 13 because my husband had gotten a job (when he lost his job was when we first considered bk...) But we'd been living below median for a long time so my husband's job didn't really put us much past median. The means test would easily have qualified us for a 7 at that point. Why did he not see that?

then we were hoping we could use the Dave Ramsay method when he got a job...but you actually have to have disposable income for that and we never really do...

So that kind of bugs me. I want to go in with some knowledge of what the hell's going on.

I don't feel bad 'pre-planning' given that I've spend so many years trying to avoid bk and if I'd just declared when I was pregnant and my husband was umemployed like I should have (my mother talked me out of it and freaked out TOTALLY about it) I would not be in this mess now!!!

I mean--does it count as 'pre-planning' if you've been working like mad and not being able to buy groceries and hanging on by your fingernails to pay credit cards for 10 years? Sheesh.

Also, I just really want to avoid Chapter 13 so I am trying to do that. Are we not allowed to plan at all?

Also, I'm secretly hoping we'll win the lottery.

So how do I find out what standard deductions are for house maintenance and other questions like that?

[keepsmiling]

If you give your income and expenses, folks here are pretty good about tweaking.

[moe]

OK, I definitely will do this at some point. I have to gather all the data. Boy, how did my life get so complicated?

I wonder if there is a website or a place where standard allowable expenses are listed. Like, I don't know what you list as a house repair expense but obviously besides medical expenses, that's my biggest terror. They'd have to let you save for a house emergency, right? So what do you list as maintenance?

I mean, if it is your actual costs in the previous 6 months my house needs a bazillion repairs. But I assume it is some percentage of your home cost or something more rational than that.

I assume pets also. Like pet health insurance. I'd be crazy not to get that. Otherwise I have no cushion, the dog could die and my kid would be heartbroken. I assume that's an allowable expense, from what I've read here.

I guess another question I have is: Before one declares does one go out and buy a car (presumably used--I would never buy a new car) so that one can put the car payment on the expense list?

I found a blog that said to do this.

My cars have over 100,000 miles. I've always owned cars outright and never had a car payment.
_____________

Edited to say: Sorry I hope I am not being too annoying. I'm getting obsessive about this. When I was trying to do it before, I was not that healthy and my brain was a bit foggy. So I couldn't get past a certain mental point without just wanting to give up. Now I'm trying to pursue it further because I am realizing I made a big mistake not getting it resolved in the past. I suspect this is a really common phenomenon where people kind of mentally shut down when faced with such a huge thing.

Now I'm doing a bit better but you know how hard it is to sleep with this hanging over your head. Also, a huge thing for me is shame and anxiety with this--so I want to be a bit more assertive. I talked to a lawyer or two and found it so daunting.

[LadyInTheRed]

moe, try the Nolo Press online means test calculator at http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/nolo/. Start by entering your zip code and go through the entire process carefully. The calculator will fill in standard allowable expenses and prompt you to fill in your actual expenses when you are allowed to.

[moe]

Oh, thank you!!!

Edited: Damn, it seems you can't put in housing expenses.

Also, student loans. There's no slot for it. You'd think that would be a totally legitimate expense. They have to let you deduct that from disposable income...right?

[biotechsolution]

Oh, thank you!!!

Edited: Damn, it seems you can't put in housing expenses.

Also, student loans. There's no slot for it. You'd think that would be a totally legitimate expense. They have to let you deduct that from disposable income...right?

No

[keepsmiling]

Welcome to the vagaries of BK. This is why the importance of a great lawyer and taking your time to plan properly is emphasized repeatedly .
Student loans go into deferment during a 13. This can present its own set of issues at times.
Keep reading and asking and planning

[moe]

Wow, so the money you spend on student loans is just counted as disposable income? You can't count it in your means test?

That doesn't make any sense to me. They let you count your car but not your student debt? Sheesh! That's really weird. That income is completely spoken for by the loan companies.

Especially in this particular time. Husband and I are just paying down some non-crazy amounts. It really makes me feel bad for young people today--the student loan debt is enough to break them.

Bankruptcy really is crazy!!! Well, we spend a huge amount on child care so thank goodness that counts.

[keepsmiling]

Hey moe, (I keep singing "5 Guys Named Moe" whenever I see your posts, love that song!)
Surely more folks who have been in your situation will be along to chime in (I did college the ultra-cheap way, got a crap education, made crap money.. so not a fan of community college... I hope for better for my ds) but in the meantime, you may find some useful info here:

http://www.bkforum.com/forumdisplay.php?26-Student-loans