Non-Consumer and Schedules I & J

[magua2]

So, I'm way over median but qualify for non-consumer. I'm close on schedules I & J. In a non-consumer, can the trustee object if I am positive on I & J? I think I recall some people saying they showed $1000 disposable income on I & J and were untouchable by the trustee because it was a non-consumer?

Also, if I have monthly payments to stuff like children's sports leagues, do those count on the schedules? Or do I have to leave off everything that isn't a necessity?

[ttg1]

If you are non-consumer the presumption of abuse does not apply as a matter of course. The trustee can still object but the burden falls upon them to do so.

[despritfreya]

Your bottom-line "disposable" income as reported on I and J is not relevant in a non-consumer case. Section 707(b) simply does not apply. Only 707(a) applies and, for your case to be thrown out "for cause" under 707(a) there needs to be something more than simply a positive number. To date, I have handled "non consumer" cases with as much as $4,000.00 left over per I and J without a problem.

Des.

[angles]

wow...4K!

[HHM]

Your bottom-line "disposable" income as reported on I and J is not relevant in a non-consumer case. Section 707(b) simply does not apply. Only 707(a) applies and, for your case to be thrown out "for cause" under 707(a) there needs to be something more than simply a positive number. To date, I have handled "non consumer" cases with as much as $4,000.00 left over per I and J without a problem.

Des.

Concur, in non-consumer cases, your schedule I and J disposible income is irrelevant. Just put accurate information. Like Desp, I have seen NonCon-7's with 4k+ of DMI and not a peep from the US Trustee.

[justbroke]

I was a non-consumer case and the United States Trustee (UST) did not intervene in my case. The above postings are exactly what I experienced in my case. The key, though, is the proof that you are non-consumer. Trust me, the UST will actually check to make sure that you have more than 50% in non-consumer debt.

[GIn]

Trust me, the UST will actually check to make sure that you have more than 50% in non-consumer debt.

What is the process he uses? Does he call the creditors I list on the form? Do I have to provide invoices or does he make them do it? Does he check the status of lawsuits?

[TBA]

We provided statements showing charges on our CCs from vendors and also had a rather large SBA loan we personally guaranteed. We are through the 30 day mark and sept 19 (maybe its the 18th, since there are 31 days in august~) will make the 60 day start of the rebirth.

[justbroke]

What is the process he uses? Does he call the creditors I list on the form? Do I have to provide invoices or does he make them do it? Does he check the status of lawsuits?

They can generally tell the "type" of credit it is. My business cards, I made sure I put "Business VISA", "Business AMEX" under the description on the Schedules. That helps them decipher the mess. If your business is still operating, the Trustee may ask for additional information about the business.

The Trustee may check lawsuits if you are entitled to a claim. That money "may" be property of the bankruptcy estate.

[GIn]

The Trustee may check lawsuits if you are entitled to a claim.

I meant, if a business creditor has sued me for $500,000 can I claim $500,000 as business debt even though the creditor is probably only entitled to $250,000 but no final value is determined because the case is still ongoing? Or with a bank loan, can I put the entire amount, plus the escalated amount of interest the bank is entitled to charge due to default, (but hasn't because they are trying to hide their bad debt at the moment) or do I have to put just the current balance? Can I list judgments against the company, when I wasn't held personally responsible for the debt? Can I list unpaid bills of the company when I'm not personally listed on the bill? The "company" is a two member LLC with me and my wife.

[ttg1]

I meant, if a business creditor has sued me for $500,000 can I claim $500,000 as business debt

Yes. Since the case is on-going you should mark the box on the schedule that it is "disputed".

Or with a bank loan, can I put the entire amount, plus the escalated amount of interest the bank is entitled to charge due to default, (but hasn't because they are trying to hide their bad debt at the moment) or do I have to put just the current balance?

That's tricky. If you are filing a seven I would put the actual balance since the whole thing is getting discharged anyway. But either way could probably be justified. I doubt anyone will challenge that number closely.

Can I list judgments against the company, when I wasn't held personally responsible for the debt?

No.

Can I list unpaid bills of the company when I'm not personally listed on the bill?

No.

The "company" is a two member LLC with me and my wife.

This is why people suggest that non-consumer cases should be handled by an attorney. Some of these question can be tricky defending on how your state governs LLCs. My answers should be seen as how I would handle it not as advice as to what you should do.

[HHM]

Bank loan: yes, you can include the interest and fees that HAVE accrued. However, you cannot put in "estimated" interest and fees of a hypothetical default since bankruptcy is not a default, the debt dies up on filing.

Lawsuit, it's a little more tricky. The amount is contingent and you probably don't want to admit to the full amount in the event the plaintiff has a basis to object to discharge. Keep in mind, a BK petition is a sworn document, when you list a debt, you are admitting liability unless you list it as disputed.

I would certainly list any debts of the business in your personal BK. There is always some claim that can be made against the owners of a small, closely held business.

[GIn]

when you list a debt, you are admitting liability unless you list it as disputed.

So, do debtors normally list all of the business debts as disputed? And that won't affect the numbers in the non-consumer debt calculation? Disputed amounts are taken at face value in the calculation?

I would certainly list any debts of the business in your personal BK. There is always some claim that can be made against the owners of a small, closely held business.

I hear you on that one. One of the business creditors came straight after me, didn't even bothering filing against the business. And I didn't even sign a personal guarantee on that one. A year later we are still battling it out in court.

[ttg1]

I understand where HHM is coming from but I think it's a dual edged sword. I don't think it's wise to put down business debts that the creditor could possibly sue you for. If they have actually sued that's one thing because you can list the debt and mark it disputed. But I don't see how you can mark a debt disputed if there is no actual dispute.

If you are filing jointly and it's a no asset case then in the big picture it doesn't make any difference because there is nothing to disburse to any creditor and at worst you would reopen the case to include them later. But if you are not filing jointly or there are assets I would be very careful about what I did or didn't put down. Potential liability is different from actual liability.

[newbie1234]

I didn't know you could file if you were over the means test.