Two whole days of thinking everything would be fine -- presumption of abuse

[sillywalks]

So, I found out two days after my 341 (which seemed to go well) that there is a presumption of abuse from the UST. Besides being freaked out, I'm a kind of upset because the reason is that on the means test, my attorney had me claiming full operating costs and ownership costs for two cars (though neither car is leased/financed). I ASKED him about this, because I had read on this site (and the No-Lo book) that some districts don't allow any ownership, or they allow only $200 per car. My attorney's response was 'this is how I always do it, sometimes they question it but not usually'. Okay, I'm paying him the big bucks, so I left it.

I had another concern when I met with him the second time to complete the 341 paperwork, and as he figured the means test, he said 'oh, you are above the mean' in a surprised tone, and asked me if my income or anything changed since I had seen him (it had been 6 weeks). Nothing had changed on my end! Still, he seemed to think that even though I came in above the mean for income, my expenses left me with a negative DMI. (This was what I had found, when I did the means test, which is why I was kind of surprised he said I passed the first time we met).

Some of you may remember that I flip-flopped about getting a car before I filed -- my car is 2001 with 195K miles, costing me $1500 a year for repairs, based on last 2 years. The other car has 200K and needs ~$4600 in repairs to make it safe to drive daily (including cat. converter, which I would not fix, but still...) -- it has cost me ~$1500 a year for the last 4+ years (including an accident).

I have submitted evidence from my mechanic to my attorney showing what I have paid to keep these cars running the last two years, plus any repairs currently needed (mine needs timing belt). I also submitted proof of medical expenses -- prescription costs, typical chiropractor visits per year, doctor visits. I submitted proof of what I pay each month for my 4 cats and dog -- 3 cats require prescription urinary tract food, one is diabetic and requires insulin 2X day, syringes, prescription diabetic food -- not counting vet visits, yearly shots, etc., I spend $150 a month.

Sorry -- my question:

If I need to, I will buy a car to help my DMI. Frankly, if I am pushed into a C 13, I would need to buy a car because my car will not last 3-5 years. Can I just buy a car or would I have to get permission from the trustee? I think it would be legitimate, since my car is over 10 years old and 195K miles -- but could it piss the trustee off and encourage them to make my life hell?

Second possibility -- I have a tenant in my basement. They pay $650 (listed as $450 in income, taking out utilities/costs). I am wondering any of the following options would be legitimate, or would they raise flags: i) kick the tenant out, thereby reducing my income by $450, ii) reduce the tenant's rent to $200, reducing income by $400-450, iii) choose not to charge the tenant rent, but let her stay. I don't really want to kick her out, but we are on a month-to-month, and she is looking for a house to buy and so could leave at any time anyway.

Can I make these decisions without input/consulting the trustee?

I am totally freaked out -- this news came at a bad time for me. I'm was trying to get off one med because it's expensive ($125 a month) and causes weight gain, but it has not gone well. I spent a month dealing with the side effects, trying to wait it out -- then got this news and spent 5 days crying hysterically off and on over anything or nothing. I have not been so depressed in a few years. Going back on the med (what else can I do?) because work starts back in 2 weeks and I would not be able to function like that. Of course, there were points during those days when I considered quitting, packing up and moving in with my mom, and just quitting the fight. I did mention in my medical expenses that I really need to be in counseling to help maintain/retain my ability to function.

Anyway, this is the most thinking I've done in days. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

S

[newbie2]

Since you've already filed and had your 341 to change your expenses the way you are describing (getting a new car / car payment, reducing income from your tentant) would probably not be allowed. What you have to hope for now is that your extensive receipts for auto repairs and such will help you, and that you won't be kicked in to a Chapter 13. Note: Remember, a Chapter 13 is voluntary. You can't be forced in to it. You can however be denied a Chapter 7. Good luck to you.

Edited to ask: It sounds like you are filing singly, if so, how did your attorney think that you could claim 2 autos and their expenses? (Let alone the deduction for ownership..that boggles me.)

[sillywalks]

Newbie2 -- I own two cars because I have a 22 year old son who is my dependent.

Ugh, this whole thing is such a mess! I am hoping the documentation I provided will help, and I kind of want to drop a rock on my attorney's foot at this point. I feel like he did not pay enough attention to my situation, even though I tried to ask pertinent questions. I also hate this process, which seems to foster behavior the opposite of what it should. I had decided not to buy a car before I filed, because I wanted to try to make my car last and save up money -- plus I decided I need to pay my mom back some of what I owe before I put any money towards anything over $500 for myself (for instance, I desperately need to replace the carpet in my house). She is having money issues of her own (cash flow -- she has investments, but she loses so much in taxes/penalties to withdraw any of it), and I really want to make things right with her.

What sucks the most is that I had around $22K in cc debt, which I had every intention of paying back. Then I ended up getting my 1st house back, putting $25K in it (plus $1000 a month for the mortgage), then having and emergency that required another $25K (1500 sq ft retaining wall blew) to fix (borrowed from mom) -- then found out the foundation was failing, etc. I had to stop shoveling money into the house, and I let it go back to the bank. Unfortunately, the bank holding the mortgage always pursues deficiencies, and they had completed the necessary legal steps to do so -- which added at least another $60K to my debt.

If I had to do it over again, I would not have put a dime into that house -- even if I had sold it for a loss, I would have come out better than I did. If the bank that foreclosed was not pursuing the foreclosure, I would not have filed for bankruptcy. Although, I realize now that I was living off my cc's and was headed for disaster.

I just really want all of this to be over. I currently have maybe $50 to last me through the end of the month (I had to buy tires for my car, my mechanic said they were unsafe). I don't have much left over at the end of the month, if anything. I have no savings. If something breaks or goes bad or requires medical treatment, I am screwed. I have to pay my HOA fees, which will have to be late. I need (not a 'want') some clothes for work, which starts in 2 weeks or so, and I don't have the money. I need to get my eyes checked for new prescription, my animals need their rabies shot (at least -- we have rabies in the area), the list goes on.

I appreciate your input. I am hoping things will work out, but it's hard to be optimistic.

s

Since you've already filed and had your 341 to change your expenses the way you are describing (getting a new car / car payment, reducing income from your tentant) would probably not be allowed. What you have to hope for now is that your extensive receipts for auto repairs and such will help you, and that you won't be kicked in to a Chapter 13. Note: Remember, a Chapter 13 is voluntary. You can't be forced in to it. You can however be denied a Chapter 7. Good luck to you.

Edited to ask: It sounds like you are filing singly, if so, how did your attorney think that you could claim 2 autos and their expenses? (Let alone the deduction for ownership..that boggles me.)

[sunshinepa]

I am so sorry to hear all this, what a bummer!

I also don't think you can change expenses at this point. You really need to just ride it out and see where it goes. Others have faced this and gotten through it and perhaps you will too. Your attorney should stay on top of this and earn his money, that's for sure. I would certainly have a talk with him about it all since he seemed to be the one causing part of the problem with the cars.

Please hang in there and keep us posted!!!

[sillywalks]

Sunshine --

Thanks for the support. I really appreciate the encouragement. I am staying in touch with my attorney -- driving him crazy, I think. He seemed frustrated with the UST, too. You would think this would have come up during the 341, but there were no problems.

I wonder if any one knows -- if I do get pushed into Ch 13 and I get a second job, would the income from the second job go into the calculations for the 13 payments?

Thanks again.

I am so sorry to hear all this, what a bummer!

I also don't think you can change expenses at this point. You really need to just ride it out and see where it goes. Others have faced this and gotten through it and perhaps you will too. Your attorney should stay on top of this and earn his money, that's for sure. I would certainly have a talk with him about it all since he seemed to be the one causing part of the problem with the cars.

Please hang in there and keep us posted!!!

[discouraged]

I am so sorry for everything you are going through. The only advice I can give you is to go to a thrift store for clothes for your new job. I was able to find great clothing that suited me well for work at a small fraction of what they cost. Please try that.

[sunshinepa]

I am so sorry for everything you are going through. The only advice I can give you is to go to a thrift store for clothes for your new job. I was able to find great clothing that suited me well for work at a small fraction of what they cost. Please try that.

Discouraged,

That is so true. Believe it or not, I have been financially comfortable since I quit paying my cards. Being retired I don't need work clothes however, I browse the Goodwill and Salvation Army. It's amazing what you can get. I jut got a "like new" Talbot blouse for 1.50 on Salvation Army 1/2 price day, it's great!

Good advice!

[sillywalks]

Discouraged and Sunshine --

Thanks for the support and suggestion. My son has always been a huge thrift store shopper. Unfortunately, it is definitely harder to find 'voluptuous' sizes at thrift stores. However, I am really good at finding great deals for clothes online (like getting a $100 sweater for $15, or a $90 jacket for $10). Ideally, what I really need is to have a small clothing fund set aside so I can take advantage of a fabulous deal when it comes along. I am going to check out a local consignment store to see what they have, and some people have recommended Ebay. I am going to go through my closet this week and see for sure what I have that fits - maybe I'll be surprised.

Thanks again for the encouragement. I hope good things happen for us all this week.

S

[chicagoannie]

sillywalks - I hope it all works out for you, I have no advice to offer, other than hope for the best and keep us updated. Your attorney deserves a swift kick. Thank goodness you have all those receipts. I really think you will be ok.

Regarding the second hand clothing, discouraged, sunshinepea and sw...I scored a gorgeous Talbot's summer suit for....$4.00 at the Salvation Army store and it looks abso-fricken-perfectly new....I was SO excited. My size, too! I have worn it to interviews and felt like a million bucks in it.

[chicagoannie]

sillywalks - ebay has gotten quite expensive since shipping/postal charges have skyrocketed. I have seen many people selling large lots of nice work clothing on craigslist for very reasonable prices - you should try that. And in the sizes "regular" people wear, not scrawny supermodels!

[sunshinepa]

sillywalks - I hope it all works out for you, I have no advice to offer, other than hope for the best and keep us updated. Your attorney deserves a swift kick. Thank goodness you have all those receipts. I really think you will be ok.

Regarding the second hand clothing, discouraged, sunshinepea and sw...I scored a gorgeous Talbot's summer suit for....$4.00 at the Salvation Army store and it looks abso-fricken-perfectly new....I was SO excited. My size, too! I have worn it to interviews and felt like a million bucks in it.

Ya gotta love that Salvation Army!!!

[lillymarlene]

sillywalks, I couldn't help but notice that you said 3 of your animals suffer from urinary tract problems. One of my cats has this problem, too. About 4 years ago, after an expensive operation, he was prescribed special food, that cost me about $15 per week. But then, I noticed at pet supply stores and supermarkets, they have non-prescription food "Special Diet" with the same ingredients, for about $0.50 per can. I've been using that for over 4 years, and he seems very healthy. Not saying you should do that, but sometimes I guess there are alternatives.

Then, of course if I absolutely had to use the expensive stuff, I'd try to find a way to take it out of something else. My animals are just part of my family.

Good luck, and hope everything works out for you.

[sillywalks]

Lilymarlene,

The things we do for those fuzzy beasts! I have to be particularly careful -- Kodi, one of my boys had to have emergency surgery last year and now basically pees from his 'bellybutton' area and no longer has male genitalia at all. I cannot risk him getting another infection (and apparently he is very prone), plus my girl has to take a steroid for her kitty asthma, which makes her very prone to UTI's (which she was already prone to get). I have a great vet who is very sympathetic to the expense, but when we discussed food he was firm that it really is necessary for my guys to have the Rx food. I appreciate the suggestion, though. I used to be able to give them the Purina UTI food, and for years the two boys and girl did fine. Kodi was only 1 year old when he had his emergency, even on the petstore UTI food, and of course Bunny has to have the Rx food for his diabetes. Although at times I long for a fur-free environment, I cannot imagine not having my little herd of monsters.

Thanks again for the encouragement.

S

sillywalks, I couldn't help but notice that you said 3 of your animals suffer from urinary tract problems. One of my cats has this problem, too. About 4 years ago, after an expensive operation, he was prescribed special food, that cost me about $15 per week. But then, I noticed at pet supply stores and supermarkets, they have non-prescription food "Special Diet" with the same ingredients, for about $0.50 per can. I've been using that for over 4 years, and he seems very healthy. Not saying you should do that, but sometimes I guess there are alternatives.

Then, of course if I absolutely had to use the expensive stuff, I'd try to find a way to take it out of something else. My animals are just part of my family.

Good luck, and hope everything works out for you.

[sillywalks]

I just wanted to mention a caution to those who shop at thrift stores (well, really any store) -- bed bugs are everywhere! I have heard that stores in big cities (NY, Chicago) have been dealing with bed bug infestations. They can live a long time without eating, and they are tiny! When you buy used furniture or clothing, you can check for bed bugs -- but the easiest thing to do with clothes is put them in the dryer for 5 minutes, or put them in a plastic bag and leave them in the sun (I always thought leaving them in a car would work, too). They are heat-intolerant, which is a good thing! Just a (creepy) thought.

S

[JackBondLove]

Some of you may remember that I flip-flopped about getting a car before I filed -- my car is 2001 with 195K miles, costing me $1500 a year for repairs, based on last 2 years. The other car has 200K and needs ~$4600 in repairs to make it safe to drive daily (including cat. converter, which I would not fix, but still...) -- it has cost me ~$1500 a year for the last 4+ years (including an accident).

A new car costing $20K will both cost more to finance and depreciate a lot faster than $1.5K/yr.

Second possibility -- I have a tenant in my basement. They pay $650 (listed as $450 in income, taking out utilities/costs). I am wondering any of the following options would be legitimate, or would they raise flags: i) kick the tenant out, thereby reducing my income by $450, ii) reduce the tenant's rent to $200, reducing income by $400-450, iii) choose not to charge the tenant rent, but let her stay. I don't really want to kick her out, but we are on a month-to-month, and she is looking for a house to buy and so could leave at any time anyway.

You could inform the tenant that since you are going through a BK, it appears that you will have to give up the house at any time, and with no warning she will be forced to leave and that any remaining rent that she would have paid would essentially be considered as unsecured debt to you that she would lose completely, etc. (lay it on thick), and that you will allow her to leave with only 1 day notice, paying her back the pro-rated rent. She will be out within a week (make sure to get her release in writing.)