Looking for insight on whether to drop it or push forward or convert to a 13.
LONG post- if you get thru it, Kudos to you!
Our attorney's office called and wanted to set a date for the UST's deposition of us.
Whaaaat??
Yep she said, it'll be an all day thing and she'll be requesting a boat load of other documentation.
So we have a conference call scheduled with our attorney on Wednesday a.m. And I jump on line and check PACER.
My thoughts:
#1) I don't have $$$ to spend on this. An all day deposition at $300/hr. Plus the hearing.
That's easily another $3K on top of the $3200 bill we currently have. Great. Don't have it. If this is a pissing match and the UST wants to see who's got the deeper pockets, she wins and will win every time on this issue with any debtor.
#2)Pacer shows the UST's list of documents and witnesses they were required to provide within 14 days of the last hearing.
Witnesses:
(My mother?! Probably because the Nissan that we use and pay all expenses for and pay her monthly for is financed and registered and titled to her and solely her. But really- no frigging way am I going to have my mother take time off from work, fly down ALONE (she hates to fly)to FL from CT, leaving my dad who had major shoulder surgery in January and won't have full use of his arm for a few more months, to participate in the UST's witch hunt. What the hell?!)
#3- These documents she's providing for evidence- I guess that's where the "boat load" will come in because it says things like "Copies of the Debtors’ utility bills for the period January 1, 2010 to the present date." We provided them thru the date of filing which was June 2010. So now she wants them for the past year (same with auto insurance, etc.)
But some of the docs make NO sense to me.
a. Copies of credit card statements of accounts in the names of either or
both of the Debtors for the period January 1, 2008 to the present date. (Ok...no major flashy purchases. Living expenses really. And we stopped using them in March/April 2008 so she'll see 4 months of purchases- and most were maxed out before that point.)
b. Copies of check registers, bank statements and cancelled checks for
all accounts of either or both of the Debtors from January 1, 2009 through the present date. (No way am I paying for 2+ years worth of cancelled checks at $20 a pop because my bank doesn't return them or include electronic images with my statements)
h. Copies of loan and/or mortgage applications filed by the Debtors
from January 1, 2008 to the present date. (We have no mortgage, definitely no mortgage applications. Loans?? We financed our daughter's mattress 6 months ago- one of those "provide your paystub, we give you a loan" type of things. So this doesn't seem to apply to us. )
i. Copies of homeowner’s, renter’s, or personal articles insurance
policies covering property of the Debtors during the period January 1, 2009 to the present date.(we have no renter's policy, and haven't had one since we started renting 3+ years ago,so what property is she looking to find insured?? Again, this doesn't seem to apply to us.)
j. Copies of statements for 401K or other retirement accounts, including
loan accounts, in the names of either of the Debtors for the years 2009 to the present date. (Really? We've only got $15K in a 401K- it was disclosed- and it's not even fully vested so we don't really have that much, and we could have $100K in there and it would be exempt so why is she even asking?)
k. Copies of the transcript of the § 341 meeting and all continued meetings held in this case.(Good. Let's be sure to point out her remarks at the beginning, shall we.)
l. Copies of transcripts of all 2004 examinations and depositions conducted in this case. (Ummm, again- no clue here. 2004? I've got nothing in 2004. Again, doesn't seem to apply to us. Does she even know this case at all?)
q. Copies of all documents related to financial contributions to the
household by other family members during the years 2009 through the present date.(No clue what this would be either. Unless she means the $100/month my son paid us to go towards our car insurance costs that skyrocketed once he was licensed.)
r. Copies of all documents related to income of other immediate family
members during the years 2009 through the present date. (Clearly she must mean my teenager's minimum wage job. As if that has any bearing on our financial status- I wish. Except he pays for his college books and the balance of his tuition at the community college- which we do not include in our education expenses because I know I can't- and he USED to pay $100 towards insurance but as of this month has his own vehicle and insurance now. Really, she wants to include the income of minor's, maybe I should tell her my little ones set up a lemonade stand on at least 2 occasions in the summer of 2009. )
s. Business records of XXXXXXX, LLC, and any other business entities in which the Debtors currently hold or have held any ownership interest or control. (Dissolved the LLC in February 2008. DH was a contracted computer programmer before taking a job as a full time salaried employee. And, it was an LLC with no other employees or property. Again- what could she possibly find interesting here.))
She even requested documentation of things we took the standard amount for according to our family size- like medical expenses.
So DH wants to just throw in the towel because quite frankly we don't have the $ to pay our attorney for all of this & he has a big project going on at work with a major product release end of July/early August and his attention HAS to be on that. I would love to have my day in court with her, but I don't have an extra few grand to do so. It would almost be worth it to go into debt with the attorney to do it though.
But after just seeing this I do laugh because we're normal people, living paycheck to paycheck, without much to show for it, and she's on a witch hunt like we have multiple properties and Swiss bank accounts! We own nothing- except for one paid for vehicle, that's worth $5k and that's debatable given it's mechanical condition! Seriously- I wanted to go visit my dad in two weeks because it's the 2nd anniversary of his brother's death and he'll be having a hard time with it (as will I). But I can't, due to lack of $- I was thinking of selling my engagement ring so that I can have the $400 to buy the plane tickets and go see him. THAT is the reality- it's nothing like the UST seems to want to cook up. Yes, DH is getting a bonus again this summer....and it's already spent. Not on fancy vacations or material items. We have one car that needs $2500 worth of repairs and the other that needs $1000 worth of repairs and a $3200+ attorney bill to pay. I know you're all jealous- We're living it large!
So we're at a cross roads: Choices being:
#1---Push on and subject ourselves to this and get further in debt with the attorney and possibly not get our discharge in the first place (because if the judge says the standard for rent is what it is, nothing else matters and we lose despite everything else). Honestly, her list is intimidating and I don't think I can handle her emotionally. I would probably find myself saying some not nice things on the record.
#2---Walk away. What happens happens. Deal with the creditors that pop up when they pop up, if they pop up.
#3---Convert to a 13. Submit all new docs and schedules (right?? is that how it's done? and would they be as of our original filing date in June 2010 or would they be as of current date?) and try for a reasonable payment. At least that pushes the crazy lady who's asking for things that don't exist (mortgage application? 2004 deposition??) out of the equation.
Thoughts and advice would be appreciated. I'm obviously emotional about it and could use some objective opinions.
Our attorney's office called and wanted to set a date for the UST's deposition of us.
Whaaaat??
Yep she said, it'll be an all day thing and she'll be requesting a boat load of other documentation.
So we have a conference call scheduled with our attorney on Wednesday a.m. And I jump on line and check PACER.
My thoughts:
#1) I don't have $$$ to spend on this. An all day deposition at $300/hr. Plus the hearing.
That's easily another $3K on top of the $3200 bill we currently have. Great. Don't have it. If this is a pissing match and the UST wants to see who's got the deeper pockets, she wins and will win every time on this issue with any debtor.
#2)Pacer shows the UST's list of documents and witnesses they were required to provide within 14 days of the last hearing.
Witnesses:
- The regular trustee
- Our prior ch 13 trustee
- Financial Analyst employed by the Office of the United States Trustee
- Any witnesses as necessary to authenticate or clarify documents
- Any witnesses as necessary to rebut the testimony offered by the
- Debtors or Debtors' witnesses
- Mrs. XXXXXXXX's mother
(My mother?! Probably because the Nissan that we use and pay all expenses for and pay her monthly for is financed and registered and titled to her and solely her. But really- no frigging way am I going to have my mother take time off from work, fly down ALONE (she hates to fly)to FL from CT, leaving my dad who had major shoulder surgery in January and won't have full use of his arm for a few more months, to participate in the UST's witch hunt. What the hell?!)
#3- These documents she's providing for evidence- I guess that's where the "boat load" will come in because it says things like "Copies of the Debtors’ utility bills for the period January 1, 2010 to the present date." We provided them thru the date of filing which was June 2010. So now she wants them for the past year (same with auto insurance, etc.)
But some of the docs make NO sense to me.
a. Copies of credit card statements of accounts in the names of either or
both of the Debtors for the period January 1, 2008 to the present date. (Ok...no major flashy purchases. Living expenses really. And we stopped using them in March/April 2008 so she'll see 4 months of purchases- and most were maxed out before that point.)
b. Copies of check registers, bank statements and cancelled checks for
all accounts of either or both of the Debtors from January 1, 2009 through the present date. (No way am I paying for 2+ years worth of cancelled checks at $20 a pop because my bank doesn't return them or include electronic images with my statements)
h. Copies of loan and/or mortgage applications filed by the Debtors
from January 1, 2008 to the present date. (We have no mortgage, definitely no mortgage applications. Loans?? We financed our daughter's mattress 6 months ago- one of those "provide your paystub, we give you a loan" type of things. So this doesn't seem to apply to us. )
i. Copies of homeowner’s, renter’s, or personal articles insurance
policies covering property of the Debtors during the period January 1, 2009 to the present date.(we have no renter's policy, and haven't had one since we started renting 3+ years ago,so what property is she looking to find insured?? Again, this doesn't seem to apply to us.)
j. Copies of statements for 401K or other retirement accounts, including
loan accounts, in the names of either of the Debtors for the years 2009 to the present date. (Really? We've only got $15K in a 401K- it was disclosed- and it's not even fully vested so we don't really have that much, and we could have $100K in there and it would be exempt so why is she even asking?)
k. Copies of the transcript of the § 341 meeting and all continued meetings held in this case.(Good. Let's be sure to point out her remarks at the beginning, shall we.)
l. Copies of transcripts of all 2004 examinations and depositions conducted in this case. (Ummm, again- no clue here. 2004? I've got nothing in 2004. Again, doesn't seem to apply to us. Does she even know this case at all?)
q. Copies of all documents related to financial contributions to the
household by other family members during the years 2009 through the present date.(No clue what this would be either. Unless she means the $100/month my son paid us to go towards our car insurance costs that skyrocketed once he was licensed.)
r. Copies of all documents related to income of other immediate family
members during the years 2009 through the present date. (Clearly she must mean my teenager's minimum wage job. As if that has any bearing on our financial status- I wish. Except he pays for his college books and the balance of his tuition at the community college- which we do not include in our education expenses because I know I can't- and he USED to pay $100 towards insurance but as of this month has his own vehicle and insurance now. Really, she wants to include the income of minor's, maybe I should tell her my little ones set up a lemonade stand on at least 2 occasions in the summer of 2009. )
s. Business records of XXXXXXX, LLC, and any other business entities in which the Debtors currently hold or have held any ownership interest or control. (Dissolved the LLC in February 2008. DH was a contracted computer programmer before taking a job as a full time salaried employee. And, it was an LLC with no other employees or property. Again- what could she possibly find interesting here.))
She even requested documentation of things we took the standard amount for according to our family size- like medical expenses.
So DH wants to just throw in the towel because quite frankly we don't have the $ to pay our attorney for all of this & he has a big project going on at work with a major product release end of July/early August and his attention HAS to be on that. I would love to have my day in court with her, but I don't have an extra few grand to do so. It would almost be worth it to go into debt with the attorney to do it though.
But after just seeing this I do laugh because we're normal people, living paycheck to paycheck, without much to show for it, and she's on a witch hunt like we have multiple properties and Swiss bank accounts! We own nothing- except for one paid for vehicle, that's worth $5k and that's debatable given it's mechanical condition! Seriously- I wanted to go visit my dad in two weeks because it's the 2nd anniversary of his brother's death and he'll be having a hard time with it (as will I). But I can't, due to lack of $- I was thinking of selling my engagement ring so that I can have the $400 to buy the plane tickets and go see him. THAT is the reality- it's nothing like the UST seems to want to cook up. Yes, DH is getting a bonus again this summer....and it's already spent. Not on fancy vacations or material items. We have one car that needs $2500 worth of repairs and the other that needs $1000 worth of repairs and a $3200+ attorney bill to pay. I know you're all jealous- We're living it large!
So we're at a cross roads: Choices being:
#1---Push on and subject ourselves to this and get further in debt with the attorney and possibly not get our discharge in the first place (because if the judge says the standard for rent is what it is, nothing else matters and we lose despite everything else). Honestly, her list is intimidating and I don't think I can handle her emotionally. I would probably find myself saying some not nice things on the record.
#2---Walk away. What happens happens. Deal with the creditors that pop up when they pop up, if they pop up.
#3---Convert to a 13. Submit all new docs and schedules (right?? is that how it's done? and would they be as of our original filing date in June 2010 or would they be as of current date?) and try for a reasonable payment. At least that pushes the crazy lady who's asking for things that don't exist (mortgage application? 2004 deposition??) out of the equation.
Thoughts and advice would be appreciated. I'm obviously emotional about it and could use some objective opinions.
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