Schedules I and J forward looking?

[pippen2012]

My income and expenses are about to change 1.5 months from now and will become stable 2 months from now for the period from June through August. Will I have to amend and re-mail schedules to everyone if the changes in income and expenses take place before the 341 meeting but after I file? I am unable to file after the changes as I will have changed districts from Denver to Colorado Springs. Will the trustee question my equipment purchases in between filing and the 341? (I am an outdoor guide). What about needed auto repairs? Also, can I file in May two weeks before the job change and be more likely to keep my tax return( $1,540 spent on a reliable $2,250 Korean economy auto in early March) I am really hung up with the timing of filing considering I and J. Is there a set rule about when a trustee gets your tax return and when they do not? I am unable to afford legal counsel and waiting to hear back from Colorado legal services. Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read and answer. I have just joined this sight and really value it.

[daylate]

The way I understand it I & J are forward looking. So if I were you, what I would do is project what I would make for the next year and divide by 12. As to your tax refund, assuming you have filed and received a refund for 2010 I think trustees start to think about refunds in or around September. That doesn't mean they won't be interested other times but from what I have read here that is about when. Your 2010 refund should be safe. It has been received and spent on a necessary expense. If you are buying supplies for work after filing but before your 341 I think it depends on where the money comes from. If it is earned after filing should be no problem. If its cash you had before filing it gets a bit dicey. If it is exempt some people have said it is ok to spend but others have said no. If it is not exempt, I definitely would not spend. Hopefully Tom in Colorado will chime in for some local input. Good luck.

[IamOld]

The way I understand it I & J are forward looking. So if I were you, what I would do is project what I would make for the next year and divide by 12. As to your tax refund, assuming you have filed and received a refund for 2010 I think trustees start to think about refunds in or around September. That doesn't mean they won't be interested other times but from what I have read here that is about when. Your 2010 refund should be safe. It has been received and spent on a necessary expense. If you are buying supplies for work after filing but before your 341 I think it depends on where the money comes from. If it is earned after filing should be no problem. If its cash you had before filing it gets a bit dicey. If it is exempt some people have said it is ok to spend but others have said no. If it is not exempt, I definitely would not spend. Hopefully Tom in Colorado will chime in for some local input. Good luck.

Daylate thank you! SO - does that mean this - IF I've had a PT job that has now gone away, I could say in my FORWARD looking forms/budget that that particular PT is no more, and therefore my disposable income is less???

AND - here is the kicker - if I take this particular PT job out, my DMI is...negative...any thoughts??

A trillion thanks.

[pippen2012]

Thank you for the detailed response. I am still hoping to hear from Colorado Legal as I get jittery about this stuff and would love to hear this affirmed by an atourney. What you have said does sound correct and thank you.

[daylate]

Daylate thank you! SO - does that mean this - IF I've had a PT job that has now gone away, I could say in my FORWARD looking forms/budget that that particular PT is no more, and therefore my disposable income is less???

AND - here is the kicker - if I take this particular PT job out, my DMI is...negative...any thoughts??

A trillion thanks.

If it is gone it doesn't count going forward. It does count in the 6 month look back though for the means test.

[pippen2012]

I am a bit leary of estimating forward and dividing by 12. The instructions clearly ask for expected changes within the next 12 months. I think that I will fill out this month as is and then list expected changes on that line 17 of Schedule I and changes for rent on line 19 of schedule J. Does anyone have some authoritative knowledge of this? Is there a moderator or tutor who may know the answer?

[IamOld]

If it is gone it doesn't count going forward. It does count in the 6 month look back though for the means test.

Daylate THANK yOU!!!!

[DebtHater]

On the top of the forms it states that the numbers are for an estimated average or projected monthly income (or expenses) at the time of filing. With that said, the schedules I and J are a snapshot of you finances when you file. Nothing needs to be resubmitted to reflect changes between the time of filing and the 341 (if there are any).

The only exception for the Schedule I is line 17 "Describe and increase or decrease in income reasonably anticipated to occur with in the year following the filing of this document:". In other words if you expect to get a huge raise within the next year I would include it. If it's just a slight increase of income for three months during the summer I wouldn't sweet it. What happens if June comes and there was a change in plans? What's going to happen after August? From the description of you post it sounds like a summer gig only. If you want to make a note under line 17 that's fine, I personally don't think it's going to make or break the petition. If you petition is filed already I wouldn't worry about an amendment.

When I (and my lawyer) calculated our petition there was absolutely no look ahead. For irregular expenses such as heating, we took the last 12 months of heating bills and divided by 12 for the monthly payment. Car repairs the same, etc. With that said, what ever expenses you have post filing, it's not really any of the trustees concern.

Also note that the Schedules I and J are separate form the means test (form 22A). The paperwork even states that the values in the schedules may be different than the means test.

In closing there is no "forward" look ahead as stated by another poster. It is impossible to estimate what will happen in the next 12 months accurately for the purposes of a filing. Again, it's a snap shot of you current affairs, up until that tine of filing.

[daylate]

On the top of the forms it states that the numbers are for an estimated average or projected monthly income (or expenses) at the time of filing. With that said, the schedules I and J are a snapshot of you finances when you file. Nothing needs to be resubmitted to reflect changes between the time of filing and the 341 (if there are any).

I would disagree with this if a person got a significant raise or a new job a day later. Small stuff I'd agree. In the big change category when asked at a 341 if anything has changed and you say "Oh yeah, I got a 20k raise two days after filing" I think you are raising a big flag. Court cases abound with people who have lost these kind of situations.

The only exception for the Schedule I is line 17 "Describe and increase or decrease in income reasonably anticipated to occur with in the year following the filing of this document:". In other words if you expect to get a huge raise within the next year I would include it. If it's just a slight increase of income for three months during the summer I wouldn't sweet it. What happens if June comes and there was a change in plans? What's going to happen after August? From the description of you post it sounds like a summer gig only. If you want to make a note under line 17 that's fine, I personally don't think it's going to make or break the petition. If you petition is filed already I wouldn't worry about an amendment.

I would agree that this is an acceptable way to handle the income. Average out the guaranteed/regular income and note the bump in summer

When I (and my lawyer) calculated our petition there was absolutely no look ahead. For irregular expenses such as heating, we took the last 12 months of heating bills and divided by 12 for the monthly payment. Car repairs the same, etc. With that said, what ever expenses you have post filing, it's not really any of the trustees concern.

Again I have to disagree. If you didn't need tires for your car last year but they are thread bare now and you can afford after the bk, I would include 1/12 each month-same with medical/dental expenses that you have been putting off. I&J are forward looking I'd make them that otherwise you could be underestimating your expenses if you are basing them on pre-filing, cash strapped expenditures. Conversely, lets say you were living mortgage free in anticipation of filing and spent all that money on expense-are you saying that you would be able to or need to replicate that spending in the coming year? Would appear to be unlikely to me.

Also note that the Schedules I and J are separate form the means test (form 22A). The paperwork even states that the values in the schedules may be different than the means test.

In closing there is no "forward" look ahead as stated by another poster. It is impossible to estimate what will happen in the next 12 months accurately for the purposes of a filing. Again, it's a snap shot of you current affairs, up until that tine of filing.

Again I disagree. As you stated in the beginning of your post, On the top of the forms it states that the numbers are for an estimated average or projected monthly income (or expenses) at the time of filing. You need to "estimate or project" your income and expenses. Sounds to me that is way different than basing it on what you just spent for 12 months.

In summary, there is enough gray in this whole process to not take anything said here (by either of us) as gospel-my only point in responding is to point out the different ways to interpret these forms. Bottom line, I'd check with local attorneys who are familiar with how things are done in your district. if you can't afford an attorney, go in for a few free consults and ask about these things and others that you are unsure of. And search the forum for other opinions/thoughts on this. Good luck.



Please forgive the formatting issues-I'm a semi-illiterate with trying something other than just a straight forward post-Yikes!

[DebtHater]

Again I disagree. As you stated in the beginning of your post, On the top of the forms it states that the numbers are for an estimated average or projected monthly income (or expenses) at the time of filing. You need to "estimate or project" your income and expenses. Sounds to me that is way different than basing it on what you just spent for 12 months.

Read it again: "Estimated average or projected monthly income at the time of filing". In other words, if I fill out my petition now (April 11) but don't plan on filing until May 15, what will my income be on May 15 (the time of filing)?

While you can disagree with me (I will admit I'm not an expert in bankruptcy) I doubt one can disagree with my attorney. After all he is the one that ultimately filed out the paperwork and filed the case. For what it's worth too, he is also a trustee in the local district BK court.

I guess the best advise would be to consult an attorney and get their opinion.

[daylate]

I have to agree with your last statement. If I have learned one thing from all of this it is that things can vary depending on district, trustee, attorney and any combination thereof. Best to educate yourself as much as possible and formulate a plan with a knowledgeable attorney who knows the local practices.