Getting all this documentation to my attorney for the UST is going to cost me $$!

[olivies]

So far (and we're not done photocopying and printing!) we have a stack that is about equal to a ream of paper. That's basically 2yrs worth of bank statements and the 3 life insurance policies.
Ridiculous! It's going to cost me a fortune to mail this to my attorney! I'm going to have to send it in a BOX ! DH said we should mix up all the bank statements so that they are all out of order and the months are mixed together, just to give her something to do because apparently she is BORED asking for this much paper work!

[justbroke]

If the UST has asked for documentation, do not play games. Do everything you can to help your attorney. I can tell you said that tongue in cheek, but I want to make sure that others understand the gravity of a UST request.

I'd make sure everything is in proper order and neatly organized. Perhaps even breaking it down by month and somehow separating each month so that it's readily understandable.

[gatekeeper]

If it going to cost you to mail it, then just drop it off. Just another way to save money.

[olivies]

No worries JB- it was tongue in cheek.

We stapled each month, and organized them chronologically. The Insurance policies were fun because they got mixed up. So figuring out what paper went with which was fun (not).

Oh, but I was tempted. LOL. I truly don't have much patience with the UST because...well-
Number one: She requested two pieces of info, that took very little work to gather, back in August. Done, gave it to her. Since then she's been postponing and postponing.
Number two: Life insurance policies? two years of bank statements? Whaaat?? We filed our tax returns every year- so I'm not sure if she thinks DH is working under the table or we were living for free or what. All strange.
But, number three: NONE of it matters if the judge sides with her and says the rental allowance for a family of 5+ is what must be allowed for our family of 8, despite the fact that I have to drive 4 towns over to see anything in that price range. Because then we're out $700 and there's no making that up.

And I could drive it- it actually may be cheaper... even though our attorney is 1.25 hours away.

[keepsmiling]

Try flat rate priority boxes, free at the PO or online at usps.com

[justbroke]

To me, it reads a little, just a little, like your attorney is a whimp. I don't know how you have 7 months of continuances on a motion to dismiss! Yes, seven months!

The UST allowances are always arguable. Just use HUD's costs. Example, I'll use Alachua County, Florida. On the UST's allowances, it shows $971 for a 5+ family for rent. It doesn't go by rooms, unfortunately. However, the FY11 HUD Fair Market Rents shows a 3-bedroom for $1,205 and a 4-bedroom for $1,242. I would argue that there's a problem between the USTs assessment and HUD (an agency actually tasked with looking at market rates!).

I used that argument in my Chapter 13 and was allowed a market rent of $1,900/month for a family of 4 in my Florida County because the UST's allowances were ridiculously low. The Trustee never complained. It's just an argument, and may not work in your District.

[daylate]

Great argument jb-just for kicks I did the comparison and for my county it kicked it up $200. And that is just rent, not including maintenance costs like mowing a lawn,trash removal,etc you might have if your are renting a house as opposed to an apartment complex, right? I swear most of the people on this board who have been through this, especially pro se filers know more than most of the attorneys I have spoken to throughout this adventure. good luck olivies.

[Flamingo]

There are reasons documents are requested to be provided. The more you argue about why and complain, the more red flags are raised. Always provide what is asked for, neatly and in order. You are not dealing with office clerks, you are dealing with what is required by the attorney/trustee as to your particular situation. If there is a problem as to the cost of the items and you cannot afford the copying fees if you have no other way of copying the items, speak with your attorney in case those costs are covered under your agreement and can be reimbursed or absorbed by the attorney. We had to provide copies going back one year for all bank statements and credit card statements. It was a lot going through documents to collect all that and I still can remember all the time it took to put that together, copy it, etc. But it is now all water under the bridge and there were never any issues or problems as we provided all that was requested.

[SunshineGal]

Hi Olivies,

No useful input, just wanted to let you know I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. I can't believe what all you've had to go through.

SG

[olivies]

Thanks for the link JB! I had looked up HUD recommendation guidelines of 2persons per bedroom, which puts me at a 4BR home (which we have). Searching for that in our area using realtor.com and the paper, there's nothing within the UST's IRS guidelines for a 300 sq mile radius! I forwarded that on to our attorney. The link you just provided gave me $1,559 for fair market rent. That definitely helps is our attorney can argue that!

[MSbklawyer]

So far (and we're not done photocopying and printing!) we have a stack that is about equal to a ream of paper. That's basically 2yrs worth of bank statements and the 3 life insurance policies.
Ridiculous! It's going to cost me a fortune to mail this to my attorney! I'm going to have to send it in a BOX ! DH said we should mix up all the bank statements so that they are all out of order and the months are mixed together, just to give her something to do because apparently she is BORED asking for this much paper work!

You realize, don't you, that we give you all this busy work so that you'll stay out of our hair while we're getting the real work done? Sort of like when the midwife orders the daddy-to-be to go boil lots and lots of water. ;)

[keepsmiling]

JB rocks.

[justbroke]

Arguing the IRS limits with the Chapter 13 Standing Trustee will sometimes bring a "fight" (litigation). Sometimes, this is worth it. There is actually a line on Form B22C (Line 26) titled "Local Standards: housing and utilities; adjustment".

if you contend that the process set out in Lines 25A and 25B does not accurately compute the allowance to which you are entitled under the IRS Housing and Utilities Standards, enter any additional

This is a known line where if you put any value, you will get an objection by the Trustee. I entered, on this line, that the division of the rent/mortgage expense and the non-rent/non-mortgage expense was wrong and that the rent expense should had been higher. I used the lower non-rent amount on line 25A (non-rent expense). I then used line 42 for excess home energy costs, since it wasn't right on line 25A (non-rent expense).

Yes, confusing, but there was a method to my madness. I didn't question the IRS' number. The IRS actually publishes one number that includes both rent/mortgage and the non-rent/non-mortgage expenses. It's the UST that then splits the number. The fight is over the split really. Once split to the correct rent/mortgage amount, I then just claimed that the non-rent expense for heating, electricity, sewer and water was too low and claimed the energy expense on line 42.

This may or may not work for everyone, and will definitely invite the Trustee to complain.

justbroke's study guide: See In re Lorenca, Case No. 09-32962 (Jan 29, 2010) (Northern District of Illinois), which is pretty good and goes to my point. The UST wanted the debtors to pay what the IRS allowance was, but the Judge concluded that the IRS number was a "minimum" and that "[t]he IRS housing allowance operates as a floor: all debtors are entitled to at least the amount of the standard when calculating the means test...".

[olivies]

justbroke's study guide: See In re Lorenca, Case No. 09-32962 (Jan 29, 2010) (Northern District of Illinois), which is pretty good and goes to my point. The UST wanted the debtors to pay what the IRS allowance was, but the Judge concluded that the IRS number was a "minimum" and that "[t]he IRS housing allowance operates as a floor: all debtors are entitled to at least the amount of the standard when calculating the means test...".

"Even if the IRS housing allowance is useful as a guidepost for reasonableness of a debtor’s housing expenses, recognition of the IRS standard is a far cry from deciding without evidence that decent rental housing is actually available to serve the needs of the family in this case."

Perfect! Thanks JB!

[csonly]

olivies - I marked all my documents clearly for the UST and faxed them to my attorney, so if you have access to a fax machine, that may be the way to go, but if you have an entire stack, you may want to tell your attorney to make sure his fax machine is full of paper. I also numbered each page, so that when my attorney received them, I was sure there weren't any lost out there in fax land.