The Saga Of StrawberrySu

[StrawberrySu]

Had my first attorney consult today!!!! .... uh, not!!!!

Went this morning after a weekend full of researching and soul searching. One of my town's two BK attorneys, it's all they do. The attorney was on vacation, I found out when I got there. I had to speak with his assistant, I don't think she was even a para-legal! Guess what, she was not a whole lot of help. She kept saying "Boy, you've really done your research!" What she meant was "you seem to know a hell of a lot more than I do."

First off, I said I was interested in a Non-Consumer BK7, which I had also stated when I made the appt. She said "Right, a Chapter 7". After I corrected her, she told me there was either a Chapter 7 or a Chapter 13. Nothing else, they had been doing BKs for twenty years, and that's all there is! Aaauuurrrgghhh!!!!

One thing she did tell me is that I was supposed to list the mortgages which are not gonna be paid (all of them) as debts. Somehow I thought I couldn't list them since I would not be reaffirming them, but she said yes. I don't have enough spaces on the means test to list them all! How do I calc that?

Okay, lets see if she could advise me if my second rental would be regarded as a business debt. I told her we had lease app dated 5/27/09, mortgage refi dated 6/8/09, and signed lease agreement dated 6/11/09. Told her we spent 6K extra and gave up our VA loan eligibility to get the payment down so we could lease right after refi. Well, "she didn't know about that kind of stuff, I should probably ask an attorney." After, I lunged across the desk and strangled her ... oh wait, that was just my "magination

She told me I COULD NOT collect the rent and not pay the mortgage. Then fifteen minutes later she was okay with it when I brought it up again. She said my husband COULD NOT quit his job to qualify. When I explained we were moving and he would have to quit, that it would be a heck of a commute from North Carolina, she begrudgingly said she guessed that would be okay.

If she is not even a para-legal, how can she give me any advice? Needless to say, my morning was frustrating and I wasted 50 cents on parking. It's freezing here and snow is piled up The weather in North Carolina is in the fifties. I can't wait!

So here is what I am left with: I think I have a tiny window of opportunity. By moving to a new state, we legitimize the job loss. If I file within 90 days I get to use Fed Exempts, which would give us the only chance to walk away with something (ie cash via the Fed Wild Card) to start over with. The extra money we save will allow us to do all the approved planning (dental, repairs, etc). I think I can live with it if I can't do the Non-consumer, since it seems we need to have super low DMI on that as well. Since there don't seem to be a lot of Non-Consumer 7s on here, I will be providing a continuing saga to let folks know how it is working out for me.

Much thanks for all the help (and ammo) I receive here!

[Jacey]

That girl should hush and get a new job. I was greatly misled by what must have been the receptionist at a huge BK lawyer's office in my state. I drove 2.5 hours for my appointment to meet with a completely non-qualified person who told me that I couldn't do the means test on my own and I would never pass it. I did it on my own and passed, and when I called back she told me again it was impossible and denied the existence of form 22A. What a waste of time/air. Act fast and drop that lawyer!

[StrawberrySu]

That girl should hush and get a new job. I was greatly misled by what must have been the receptionist at a huge BK lawyer's office in my state. I drove 2.5 hours for my appointment to meet with a completely non-qualified person who told me that I couldn't do the means test on my own and I would never pass it. I did it on my own and passed, and when I called back she told me again it was impossible and denied the existence of form 22A. What a waste of time/air. Act fast and drop that lawyer!

This "girl" was in her sixties, Jacey! You know, one of those old biddies that thinks she knows everything, but doesn't I, on the other hand, am an old biddy (53), who thinks she knows everything and I'm at least half right. So sorry you had to travel so far and have the same experience, mine was only a few miles away. And I certainly don't mean to make light of a very dark and difficult situation for all of us on this board, I'm just trying to laugh so I don't cry.
This was my initial "free" consult. How do BK lawyers get clients, when they treat prospective clients this way?

I am sorely tempted to go pro se. I did it on my first BK, with a paid file preparer. But I am scared I will get caught off guard with all the new rules, and screw it up. And it is so complicated this time. I will try to contact a BK atty in Charlotte NC where we are moving and hopefully get a phone consult.

[HHM]

BK is not something that needs to be done locally...that is the oddest misconception out there. Yes, it needs to be done by an attorney in your state, but if you live in a rural area and have a complex case, time to go to the big city to get real representation.

Strawberry: If the assistant was not an attorney, I at least under the responses she gave. Note, she was right on one thing, you DO list the mortgage payments on the means test, ALL OF THEM, and the Mortgages are Debts and go on Schedule of Secured Creditors. Also, she is "technically" right on the chapter 7 issue. Chapter 7 is chapter 7 regardless if it is consumer or non-consumer. But, any attorney worth their salt should be aware of this major exception to the means test---non-consumer debt.

Personally, it sounds like you have too much going on to go pro se. Too many potential pitfalls that even many lawyers don't know how to navigate.

Also, I think I answered this in your other thread, DMI is NOT A FACTOR at all in a non-consumer case. You can have as much DMI as you want and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[StrawberrySu]

BK is not something that needs to be done locally...that is the oddest misconception out there. Yes, it needs to be done by an attorney in your state, but if you live in a rural area and have a complex case, time to go to the big city to get real representation.

Strawberry: If the assistant was not an attorney, I at least under the responses she gave. Note, she was right on one thing, you DO list the mortgage payments on the means test, ALL OF THEM, and the Mortgages are Debts and go on Schedule of Secured Creditors. Also, she is "technically" right on the chapter 7 issue. Chapter 7 is chapter 7 regardless if it is consumer or non-consumer. But, any attorney worth their salt should be aware of this major exception to the means test---non-consumer debt.

Personally, it sounds like you have too much going on to go pro se. Too many potential pitfalls that even many lawyers don't know how to navigate.

Also, I think I answered this in your other thread, DMI is NOT A FACTOR at all in a non-consumer case. You can have as much DMI as you want and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Oh I am not foolish enough to think I can navigate this snake pit without representation, HHM, lol. I guess it is just irritating when you know so much more than the person who is supposed to be the expert. How is this a "consultation" when she can't really advise me? My "free" consultation was useless. I just don't know why I was not meeting with the attorney, or at least told I would only be meeting with a paralegal, or an assistant, or his maiden aunt or whatever she was.

Yes, you did tell me about the DMI on a Non-consumer, but on this board I have read wildly fluctuation amounts for that, many of which are very small. I have come to the conclusion that it may very well depend on the trustee and how he views it, based on what attorneys are telling people. So I think the attorney in the area where I intend to file will be my best resource for that, for he should know how the local trustees would view it. I already knew I was probably going to file in NC, and be in a big city, so I guess I was just kinda looking for someone to give me some general guidelines, and perhaps point out why my interests would be better served to file here.

I do appreciate your help!

[StrawberrySu]

BK is not something that needs to be done locally...that is the oddest misconception out there. Yes, it needs to be done by an attorney in your state, but if you live in a rural area and have a complex case, time to go to the big city to get real representation.

Strawberry: If the assistant was not an attorney, I at least under the responses she gave. Note, she was right on one thing, you DO list the mortgage payments on the means test, ALL OF THEM, and the Mortgages are Debts and go on Schedule of Secured Creditors. Also, she is "technically" right on the chapter 7 issue. Chapter 7 is chapter 7 regardless if it is consumer or non-consumer. But, any attorney worth their salt should be aware of this major exception to the means test---non-consumer debt.

Personally, it sounds like you have too much going on to go pro se. Too many potential pitfalls that even many lawyers don't know how to navigate.

Also, I think I answered this in your other thread, DMI is NOT A FACTOR at all in a non-consumer case. You can have as much DMI as you want and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

HHM, using this new information of including the mortgage debt for all properties, I came up with this set of scenarios re: Non-Consumer VS Consumer ... here are my calculations for the means test (and since there is not any space for more than one mortgage, I put the total of all three on the line for your mortgage, hopefully that isn't skewing the numbers)
job + retirement + rental income = -744 DMI
unemployment + retirement + rental income = -1844 DMI
retirement + rental income = -3644 DMI
retirement + unemployment = -3344 DMI

So with all this negative DMI does it matter which way I go? Should I keep looking for avenues to go Non-Con if I am going to be so negative in any case?