Really looking for input regarding income in chapter 7....

[csonly]

I posted this under another title, but no one is replying. I would like to know if the UST can actually count my daughter's SSD as income, which he has done. She is not filing BK. She does live with us and I claim her on our taxes. Anything?

[tcreegan]

Hi csonly,

Anything? ...oh you betcha!

Her income is a benefit under Soc.Sec. so no it doesn't get included.

Form B22A (means-test) line 10 "Do not include any benefits received under the Social Security Act"

For schedule J

USC title 11 chap1 § 101 (10A)(B)

includes any amount paid by any entity other than the debtor (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor’s spouse), on a regular basis for the household expenses of the debtor or the debtor’s dependents (and in a joint case the debtor’s spouse if not otherwise a dependent), but excludes benefits received under the Social Security Act

And...

USC title 11 Chap 13 § 1325 (b)(2)

the term “disposable income” means current monthly income received by the debtor (other than child support payments, foster care payments, or disability payments for a dependent child made in accordance with applicable nonbankruptcy law to the extent reasonably necessary to be expended for such child)

if the UST can actually count my daughter's SSD as income, which he has done. ...this seems so basic, what rock did he crawl out from under?

[csonly]

The UST has her SSD listed on line 8....this makes no sense to me at all. Also has in comments, daughter's SSD from Schedule I. My attorney told me to get her expenses together because if they are going to count her income, we need to count her expenses too. Really????? Why should she be penalized, she isn't filing BK? There are more problems with this B22A, such as where should our health insurance, dental insurance, etc., be listed??? He has an amount on line 34 that is totally not even close to what we pay. Not only that, they "minimized" the documents, so you can barely read anything on these forms. I'm so frustrated.

[tcreegan]

Hi again csonly,

Remember to think in terms of a "household" Any $$ that goes into the household is income. Anything spent is an expense.

BUT....Congress was real clear when they wrote the law that Soc.Sec. Benefits were NOT income.

Ask your attorney why USC title 11 chap1 § 101 (10A)(B) and USC title 11 Chap 13 § 1325 (b)(2) don't apply.

I hear you on the "minimized" forms, with my bifocals I now have 3 ways for it to be fuzzy

(And I DON'T hear on these danged cellphones. Wonderful invention but someone needs to work on the speaker part)

Tom in Colo

ps: extraneous sources of income go either on line 8 or line 10, shouldn't make a difference.
line 34 is where health insurance goes, it should be exactly what your premiums are...

...there is getting to be a number of things not adding up in your case....

[csonly]

Tom - sent you a PM before I read this post, so I think everything is covered in that with more questions for you. You're right though, things are not adding up correctly "literally." I value your input. I will bring up that chap info that you referenced with my attorney, when I talked to him Friday, he kind of changed his tune on the SSD, saying they should NOT count it, but nothing surprises me at this point. It's not like her SSD is a lot, she could never survive on her own with that amount.

[csonly]

I also wonder why for our car payments, they only allow us a certain amount and those amounts end up being almost $400 less than our actual payment is. I don't get this? We need our cars and plan on keeping them. We refinanced them about 1-1/2 years ago to get enough money to adopt my son's sister (long story), but that is why the payment is high, as we borrowed over the value of them. We have 3 cars total, but own one and is worth nothing, but is good on gas, so we'll run that as long as we can. I had a pay cut early in 2010, which started this spiraling downward motion in our finances. Can you help me understand this car payment expense and how it works?

[daylate]

Hi csonly- You many want to review this thread if you haven't des has some info on SS as far as DMI in the I&J scenario. Unfortunately, I don;t think it helps your case but you should probably read it.


http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...cause-of-my-SS

Good luck.

[ValleYum]

I think I know the answers as to why your car payment amount seems less on the means test -

(1) There is a maximum cap for car loan expense of $489.
(2) If it seems just plain low, it could be because for line 42, you have to total all payments coming due on your car in the coming 60 months and divide by 60. If you don't have 60 months left on the loan you just divide the balance owed by 60 (It took a car payment from us of almost $500 and made it $123 because of this). The GOOD NEWS is that you do get to 'offset' this amount back up on lines 23 and 24 (just complete the computation).

I hope this helps, too. Gah, I am so mad at your trustee for you!

[csonly]

ValleYum - I'm getting so many things thrown at me, I still don't understand this, so I will list the amts that the trustee listed for the lines you mentioned and maybe you can help me figure this out. The actual car payments are $586 (due to be paid off 10/2015) and $439 (due to be paid off 09/2014).
Line 42 Debtor amount listed 586 and 351, next column -215 and -89, third column 371 and 261 (UST calculations).
Line 23 and 24, I will just list UST calculations..
Line 23 496 and 371
Line 24 496 and 262
Does this sound right to you? I'm totally confused. Sorry.

[ValleYum]

It is making more sense to me now. Do you have the payoff amounts (or unpaid balance) handy for each vehicle since they both are under 60 months until payoff? I think then I can 'splain it to you.

[csonly]

I don't have the acutal amounts as they don't send me statements anymore, but I can give you a ball park. 22K for the $586 pmt and 14K for the $439. I'm hoping the balance is less since I've been making "voluntary" payments and they are current.

[ValleYum]

I haven't forgotten you - I have an Anatomy & Physiology quiz due today - and I will be back ASAP to your question.

[ValleYum]

Okay.

When you have car payments for a shorter period than 60 months on the Chapter 7 Means Test - they take the balance you owe and divide it by 60 to come up with an Average Monthly Payment. So by the amounts owing you gave me and what the Trustee has come up with I have presumed a balance of $22,260 on the newer car and a balance of $15,660 for the older car. These balances may have changed but the Trustee may be working with the old figures you originally submitted when you first filed.




So.....what the trustee means by what he has written with what you told me:

Line 42 Debtor amount listed 586 and 351, next column -215 and -89, third column 371 and 261 (UST calculations).

is for car #1 he listed the payment you listed <that you actually pay> (586) the difference between that payment and his calculation (-215) and his calculation of what your Average Monthly Payment should be (371).

and for car #2 he listed the payment you listed <that you actually pay> (351) the difference between that payment and his calculation (-89)** and his calculation of what your Average Monthly Payment should be (261).

**Although he made a math error here and difference is actually -90

So then up on lines 23 and 24 where the UST wrote:

Line 23 and 24, I will just list UST calculations..
Line 23 496 and 371
Line 24 496 and 262**

**Trustee made an errror here should be 261 as it was above.



For Car #1, all the Trustee was doing was listing the IRS Transportation Standard - ownership cost (496) and what he computed your payment to be (371). This allows you to receive $125 in Net ownership expense on your means test.

For Car #2, he listed the IRS Transportation Standard - ownership cost (496) and what he computed your payment to be (261). This allows you to receive $235 in Net ownership expense on your means test.


I hope this makes sense and it helps you!! Let me know if I need to explain it more.

[csonly]

ValleYum .... I'm almost there. First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to help me understand this.

So the net ownership expense ends up being the difference of what the IRS standards are and what my actual payment for the car is, or close to it? Car #2 the actual payment is $439, but the paper work shows $351, so that amount is wrong, right? OR was that another IRS standard issue and they changed it? My big question is, if I owe 596 and 439 per month for car payments and I want to keep them and I end up having to go into a 13, will I have to take money from other things to make up that amount of the payment, or should this even out between the ownership cost/ownership expense???? I'm just worried about having to take money from another part of my budget to make up this difference in the car payments. My attorney is supposed to call me today to go over the documentation that the trustee requested and to go over the B22A. I'm just hoping there are enough errors on the trustees end to keep me in a 7, but who knows at this point. I went from a negative 125 on means to 1041 in DMI, big difference.....but a major chunk of that is another wrong amount that the trustee entered for health insurance and he also factored in my daughter's SSD, so not sure if that will stay in there or not. I should know more by the end of the week.

[csonly]

ValleYum -- I want to add, on schedule J, my attny has car #2 as $439, on the means test he has it as $351.20 (line 24b). Should this be the actual amount of $439 on line 24b???