Developments....It's strategic, I hope

[olivies]

So my attorney filed a "Motion to Set Bar Date for Filing Proofs of Claim", to see what creditors would be filing claims if we did convert to a 13. He mentioned doing this, just as a strategic move, suggesting that to date nobody had made claims but that was typical in a no asset Ch 7 case. But if we convert to a 13 and no claims were made, or only a couple creditors made claims, our Ch 13 would really be a low or zero pay out. Following so far? I hope this makes sense - and I hope the experienced ones here will jump in with their input.

But the second part was that he said we would get a judge to make a decision on the rent issue. If a judge sides with us, and says we can take more than the standard amount, then we would address the other issues in the UST's POA and motion to dismiss (which I thought we already had- the only thing left was to prove that we didn't over withold our taxes I thought). If he didn't side with us, then we may have to talk about converting.

Today I got a copy of "UNITED STATES TRUSTEE'S MOTION FOR ADDITIONAL EXTENSION OF TIME WITHIN WHICH TO FILE MOTION TO DISMISS UNDER 11 U.S.C. § 707 AND A COMPLAINT OBJECTING TO DISCHARGE UNDER 11 U.S.C. § 727".

Yes,..... she requested yet ANOTHER extension. Our hearing was set for Feb 17th, so I'm guessing she'll get another 60 days beyond that. Now, our attorney said he talked to her and told her he was going to send out his notice to set a date to make claims. So **hopefully** she's just being cordial and allowing that time to play out. ???

Still can NOT believe we filed in June, and here it is nearly February and we're up in the air.

[Gladysw]

I just read your update, is their another reason for why the UST wants to Dismiss, or is it only because of the rent issue? It appears excessive in my opinion for the UST to keep dragging it out just because of the rent issue? Are you way over the median or your debts too high or something?

sorry I'am new to the forum, so just being curious.

I'am trying not to worry about our case, I hope is goes thru smoothly, as we are below the median.

[olivies]

Relax. You are under the means test. You probably have nothing to worry about. We are $30K over the median income for our family. Here's the verbatim from the Motion to Dismiss and POA:

United States Trustee’s Comparative Analysis.
15. The Comparative Analysis includes adjustments to the Debtors’ Form 22A
for non-mortgage expenses, mortgage/housing expense, vehicle ownership expense,
taxes, charitable contributions, secured debt payments, and chapter 13 administrative
expenses. The Comparative Analysis adjusts lines 20A, 20B, 24, 25, 40, 42, 45, 46, and
48 through 51.

Adjustment for Housing and Utilities; Non-Mortgage Expenses
16. On line 20A, the Debtor claimed a non-mortgage expense for utilities of
$601, which amount was reduced by $28 to $573 to reflect the appropriate IRS local
standard for the applicable county and household size.

Adjustment for Mortgage/Rent Expense
17. On line 20B, the Debtors claimed housing expense of $1,725, which amount
exceeds the IRS standard for the county and household size. Therefore, the housing
expense deduction was reduced by $665 to $1,060, which is the applicable IRS local
standard amount for this expense.


Adjustment forVehicle Ownership Expenses
18. On Line 24, the Debtors claimed an ownership expense for a second car of
$496. Since the Debtors make a payment of $305 for this car, that amount was deducted
from the amount claimed, thereby reducing the amount on line 24 to $191.00. (**this car is actually my mom's- not titled, registered or financed in our name. She gave it to us to use because we needed a car, and she couldn't afford the payments. So she pays the car, we send the $ to her. But legally- the car could wreck tomorrow and we wouldn't get a dime. We could also send her the $ and she could choose not to pay it and it could get repo'd despite us paying. She could also just ask for the car back when hers dies, despite us paying for it. We made the adjustment here. It washes out further in the secured debt portion of the means test, so no big deal. But really, we do not own the car- yet. Hopefully, when it's all paid up she'll turn the title over to us.**)

Adjustment for Taxes
19. At line 25, the Debtors claimed an expense for taxes of $1,987 per month.
The appropriate amount of income tax liability for the Debtors’ family size, with standard
deductions, is $19,146.48 per year. Therefore, the amount of monthly income tax
expense was reduced by $391.46, to $1,595.54 per month. (**Inaccurate and wrong. We lose my son as a deduction because he earned $3500 last year, and we lost the earned income credit on him also. This calculation puts our withholding below 2009 level, and we ended up owing $3K in taxes last year. Our withholding has been checked and double checked with various calculators. Our attorney says our income tax returns have proven this for us**)

Adjustment for Charitable Contributions
20. At line 40, the Debtors include an expense for charitable contributions of
$1,537.05 per month. This amount was reduced by $1,097.05 to $440 per month, based
in part on the amount listed on Schedule J of $404, and in part on the supplemental
information provided by the Debtors to the U.S. Trustee. (**This was a screw up on the paralegal's part. She lumped a couple of categories under charitable contributions, when it was supposed to be $440 charitable, some education, some healthcare. The attorney pointed this out at the 341, and we corrected it on our ammended means test. I don't believe the number changed, just the placement of the amounts**)


Adjustment for Secured Debt Payments
21. On line 42, the Debtors included an expense of $446.91 per month for a car
payment. That amount was increased by $305 to $751.81, to include the amount paid on
a second automobile loan for an automobile used by the Debtors. (** the second part of the car payment adjustment...noticed how she concedes that we USE the car, not own it. **)

Chapter 13 Administrative Expenses
22. The Debtors did not list a payment on line 45c of the Form 22A for the
administrative expense of a chapter 13 plan. After recomputation of the Debtors’
monthly disposable income, the United States Trustee has adjusted line 45 to reflect a
chapter 13 administrative expense of $269.11, based upon 9.4% of the total plan
payments. The adjusted amount listed on line 45c of the Comparative Analysis may
change upon further discovery in the case. (**Yeah, the paralegal just didn't include this. It doesn't hurt us. It's been added to the amended means test**)



She asked for healthcare expense, education and childcare expenses. I emailed whatever info I could get from our online accounts and budgeting, etc. to our attorney and he sent it to her. She didn't question those any further.

SO...all said and done, the attorney said the UST rep's biggest hang up is our rent. I've researched and we can NOT get a 4BR rent for $1060 in our county. She may argue that we could get a 3BR rent, but we've been turned away from some 3BR houses because the HOAs and apartment management firms had a tenant/bedroom ratio limit. Someone here pointed me to HUD requirements- which aren't laws, they're more like guidelines really (name that movie) and they do recommend HUD housing set a 2 person per bedroom guideline for occupancy. And many bedrooms are just not sized to hold 3 beds and a couple dressers. We have a 1400+ (almost 1500) sq ft rental right now. It's not big, not fancy. It's cozy.

[ValleYum]

Olivies? It was me who talked about the HUD guidelines before.

Have you spoken with someone from your local municipal building and permits division? Many municipalities and states have requirements that must be met for rooms to be considered as "bedrooms" or sleeping quarters - for example: an egress window, a closet, a door and a smoke/CO2 detector. If you have these requirements, get it in writing from the city, county or state. Also print off the HUD recommendations. HUD recommends 2 occupants per bedroom for a reason.

Bureaucrats hate being faced with bureaucracy. I won an IRS audit using this exact concept.

I truly, truly wish you luck. I hold my breath each time I see you post hoping for the magic word "Discharged!"

[tcreegan]

Hi olivies,

Just wanted to throw in an encouraging word, you have had plenty of bumps in the road, hope it smooths out someday....

Tom in Colo

ps: I think you have set the record on the forum for most time wasted by a trustee, any consolation?