Are these list of expenses reasonable?

[daylate]

From the IRS site:

Local Standards: Housing and Utilities

The housing and utilities standards are derived from Census and BLS data, and are provided by state down to the county level. The standard for a particular county and family size includes both housing and utilities allowed for a taxpayer’s primary place of residence.


Housing and Utilities standards include mortgage or rent, property taxes, interest, insurance, maintenance, repairs, gas, electric, water, heating oil, garbage collection, telephone and cell phone. The tables include five categories for one, two, three, four, and five or more persons in a household.

Looks like by definition they are. But this is one area that confuses the heck out of me. Are you supposed to move?Sell you house at today's deflated value? Refinance (ha!)? Get your taxes lowered? Not insure the house? (which I'm sure you have to ) At one point I'm sure your expenditures were affordable but due to circumstances are part of the problem. Sorry for the rant, but today I'm feeling a bit po'd.

[october99]

Hey csonly - Have you heard about Amazon Mom? http://www.amazon.com/gp/mom/signup/welcome You can save so much on diapers and wipes by joining and setting up subscription orders for diapers and wipes. It is the cheapest deal I've found and you get free Amazon Prime to start and then it keeps renewing with each month that you spend at least $25.

[Freddy03]

Hi all, Hi csonly,

I'm confused..I'm as confused as you are. ....well we are a BK forum, this sounds about right

In your expenses you can be higher than "standard", but have documentation to back it up.

The student loan expenses issue is a real gray area, it will come down to your local trustee.

w/o the 2nd mortgage paymnet, the mortgage/non-mortgage (utilities etc) is at the high range for PA, IRS local standard, if you are in Montgomery county it is right on. ...make sure your lawyer knows how to handle the 2nd mortgage payment.Food + clothing + personal care + housekeeping = 1530 ...about 100 less than the IRS standard. How about haircuts, shampoo, soap, paper towels, napkins, trash bags, tp, all the non-food items when you get out of the supermarket. Throw in diapers and wipes.....

Medical/dental/vision out-of-pockets looks low, especially w/ a disabled child. Look around here to see what you might have overlooked. Annual eye exams, dental check ups-per month costs, bandaids, antibacterial ointment, all your copays, aspirin, whatever you come out of the pharmacy dept with...

Child Education expenses....? Does the daycare have any educational content? Buy any school supply items? How about your older child, anything educational expense-wise for him/her?

The telecomm. bill = ~400....I would expect this to get picked on but you have it justified. The UST says telco expenses can be justified if they are for "health and welfare or production of income" ...your case sounds like "production of income" to me.

Transportation is high, but necessary, have documentation.

Have the daycare documented

.....something still seems missing....

Business expenses, union dues, work uniform,......

Can't put my finger on it....

So far so good csonly, keep at it!

Tom in Colo

In bold: Are 2nd mortgage/heloc payments not included on Schedule J?

[daylate]

As I was reading through the info about housing this also caught my eye- day care expenses were not allowed if one parent stayed home in some cases depending on circumstances-with your disabled daughter hopefully this allows you to count these expenses.

I'd post the link but I don't know if I can. Can I?

[discouraged]

How about entertaiment & misc? I know I don't really use the entertainment (who can afford it) but it's in the list I believe. Laundry/drycleaning?

[momofthree]

As far as daycare going thru so many diapers. I work for a daycare and our state regulations require that we check diapers every 45 minutes. If the diaper is soiled at ALL, we are required to change it. In an 8-hour day, that is 10-11 diapers per day if your child wets often. Needless to say I potty-trained my 2-year-old early!

And how on earth can they charge you so much for daycare and not provide meals? That is outrageous!

[csonly]

My disabled daughter could not babysit 2 toddlers. She has been left with deficits from the accident. She had a brain injury. It would be perfect if she could babysit, but unfortunately that isn't possible. She is really disabled. She was able to help me feed and change them when they were little, but she can barely keep her own balance, but I thank God she didn't end up in a wheelchair. She had many injuries but the TBI is life changing for her/us.

[csonly]

I have no dry cleaning, but will put entainment on list to check with attorney. Thanks!

[csonly]

Wow, no wonder they go through so many. Two in diapers is crazy. My son is 2, and we've tried to potty train but are having a hard time, girls are so much easier (in my opinion). I'm guessing I may be training my 1 and 2 year old together at this rate. The cost of daycare here is crazy, plus if you don't pick them up by the time agreed, they add more. They'll provide a hot meal, that I send and they can nuke!! LOL

[csonly]

I will check that out. I sometimes use diapers.com, they have their brand of diapers too, but I really didn't care for them, Target brand is better, but I am going to check this site out. I never did hear of that, so thanks. What is Amazon prime?

[olivies]

As I was reading through the info about housing this also caught my eye- day care expenses were not allowed if one parent stayed home in some cases depending on circumstances-

Honestly, with all the grief the UST is giving me this is one thing she did not balk at. Are you sure that's accurate? The fact that I am a SAHM does not mean we have zero childcare expenses: point and case- do they really want me dragging four young kids to a 341? It is not solely one parent's responsibility to provide care for a child, and filing jointly implies sharing costs doesn't it? The fact that a stay at home parent may mean full time day care is not required, does not mean that child care is never required.

[ValleYum]

I don't remember which fabulous forumer posted this link - but it was of immeasurable help as a reference guide for my means test as well as formulating a solid Schedule J.

http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/docs/ch7_line_by_line.pdf

[ValleYum]

Couldn't you shift the cost of the 2nd phone line, a portion of your internet and your portion of the cell bill to business expenses? Those would definitely be "reasonable and necessary" in order to produce your income. The IRS allows non-reimbursed business expenses on Schedule A Line 21 that exceed 2% of your AGI (adjusted gross income).

Just a thought since it *may* help to lower some of the UST "target" areas and make them more "bulletproof."

[csonly]

ValleYum, I think that is a good point. Another notation for my attorney. For my job, I have to have 2 phone lines and the internet and that has to be high speed. Thanks for that link too. I really need to go over that with a fine tooth comb. I saw on there about non-debtor student loan may not be included in expenses, but could not find if a debtor student loan was an allowable expense. Am I missing that or is it there somewhere. That expense remains to be unclear if it's permitted or not.

[october99]

I will check that out. I sometimes use diapers.com, they have their brand of diapers too, but I really didn't care for them, Target brand is better, but I am going to check this site out. I never did hear of that, so thanks. What is Amazon prime?

Amazon Prime is Amazon's membership program that gets you free 2-day shipping on lots of stuff. I get the big box of Huggies size 6 diapers (100 count) for $22 with free shipping. I went from spending about $100/month min to less than $50. We still use Target brand sensitive wipes. Love them more than any of the other brands.