Are these list of expenses reasonable?

[csonly]

I wanted to get your opinion of my expenses. As you may know, the UST filed to statement for POA, so if we end up having to fight this or be forced into a 13, I want these numbers to be right and not too high that they smell funny and not to low that we are cheating ourselves. Keep in mind, we are a family of 5, 2 toddlers and a 25 yo disabled daughter. We live in PA and a high real estate tax area (or at least I think the taxes are outrageous here). I spend about $200 a month on diapers/wipes, but don't think it is listed on my schedules, unless the attorney added it with the food??

Mortgage with taxes and insurance $1647
Second Mortgage $270
Electricity/heating fuel $544 (384 electric, 160 gas - both budgets)
Water and sewer $59
Telephone/Internet $147
Cell phone $163
Cable $96
Garbage $37
Dues $6.00
Home repairs $50
Food $1330
Clothing $200
Medical/Dental $135
Transportation (gas) $600 (husband drives to work 120 miles a day)
Life insurance $71
Auto Insurance $244
1% wage tax $111
Car #1 $586
Car #2 $439
Student Loan $53
Aqua Therapy for daughter prescribed by doctor $67
Day Care $1365
Parking $36
Auto Repair/Maintenance $100
____
$8356 Expenses

Your thoughts please!

[Freddy03]

Student loans can't be included in expenses.

[csonly]

Freddy, Doesn't it have to count as an expense though? I know that 401K loans can't be counted. My attorney also has that listed on another schedule with the car loans, mortgage, etc, ones that will still be paid by me regardless of BK. Any thoughts on the other numbers? High/low/average?

[Freddy03]

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?65141-Student-Loans-and-Ch-7&highlight=Student+Loans

Here's my post about student loans from Nov.

Everyone I've spoken with on here says it can't be included in your expenses.

[chicagoannie]

About $400 for phones, internet and cable - that seems really high to me. Also, is the $200 for diapers/wipes included in the $1330 food figure? If not, food seems high to me. And, actually $200 for diapers/wipes seems high...or does that include formula?

[csonly]

For the phones, I have to have 2 (land) lines because I work from home, employer requires 2 phone lines and high speed internet. I have 4 cell phones on our plan, my husband needs the smartphone/data package for work. Of course neither employer pays for these, they just require that we have it. I have the lowest minute package available on the cell phone. We have digital cable for one TV and basic on the others. No extras like HBO, etc. For the diapers, I have 2 babies in diapers and also have to supply daycare with diapers and wipes, which seems like all the time they are asking for them. I have recently started using generic diapers, Target brand, they are much cheaper and work just fine. I've tried generic wipes, forget it, I have to use Pampers sensitive for both babies. I'm guessing he did include this in the food/grocery section. Not sure if this helps justify these expenses but something I wil definitely speak to my attorney about. I have a list a mile long of questions for him. He probably sees my number come up on his caller ID and runs the other way! Also, any suggestions on how to cut these particular expenses?

[ValleYum]

Medical/Dental looks low for a family of 5. I would combine aqua therapy into this and take the 60 per month per person that the standards allow. That's 98 dollars for your team!

Your Medical Dental $135 + Aqua Therapy $67 = $202
Standards Allow $60 * 5 = $300

[csonly]

Freddy, thanks for the info. I did know they were not discharageable, but didn't know they were not an expense. Another question for my attorney and I will let this forum know what he says on that. Also, like the others, it doesn't seem right that it's an expense, yet not allowed to be qualified as one. I'm glad mine is low, can't imagine hundreds for that expense and not be able to claim it. Curious though, do they let you use as an expense in a Ch 13?

[csonly]

ValleYum, thank you. I will definitely have my attorney change that. I'm still kicking myself for not finding this forum sooner.

[ValleYum]

For the diapers, I have 2 babies in diapers and also have to supply daycare with diapers and wipes, which seems like all the time they are asking for them. I have recently started using generic diapers, Target brand, they are much cheaper and work just fine. I've tried generic wipes, forget it, I have to use Pampers sensitive for both babies.

Also, any suggestions on how to cut these particular expenses?

Write your last name or initials across the butt of every diaper you take into the daycare. They won't 'share' yours so freely. Trust.

[csonly]

Valleyum, what a great idea. I have noticed they sometimes come home with a diaper I know I didn't buy, so I'm sure ours sometimes do go on other babies. Actually one day one of the daycare personnel was complaining that another parent only sent 3 diapers for her son for an entire day, maybe we make up the rest for him. LOL. I send the diapers in bulk, but I guess one way to limit it, is send them in daily, that way I would know exactly how many they are using, but seems more of a pain to me. I love the idea of putting their/our name across the rump, I'm going with that. I swear they are also asking for juice all the time, I even have them water it down as I don't like them getting a lot of sugar, but of course, the cost of juice compared to diapers is nothing. Just makes ya wonder. They also want us to provide "hot meals" for lunch, not cold sandwiches, but of course, something they can microwave to heat quickly. My babies are picky eaters, so that is so hard, they would rather have a P&J over anything.

[Freddy03]

I just spoke with my attorney's assistant and she told me that my student loan payment would go on schedule J. Now I'm confused..LoL

[csonly]

Mine is also on Schedule J, under "other installment payments." Also listed in that category is my second mortgage and my #2 car payment. I'm as confused as you are.

[tcreegan]

Hi all, Hi csonly,

I'm confused..I'm as confused as you are. ....well we are a BK forum, this sounds about right

In your expenses you can be higher than "standard", but have documentation to back it up.

The student loan expenses issue is a real gray area, it will come down to your local trustee.

w/o the 2nd mortgage paymnet, the mortgage/non-mortgage (utilities etc) is at the high range for PA, IRS local standard, if you are in Montgomery county it is right on. ...make sure your lawyer knows how to handle the 2nd mortgage payment.

Food + clothing + personal care + housekeeping = 1530 ...about 100 less than the IRS standard. How about haircuts, shampoo, soap, paper towels, napkins, trash bags, tp, all the non-food items when you get out of the supermarket. Throw in diapers and wipes.....

Medical/dental/vision out-of-pockets looks low, especially w/ a disabled child. Look around here to see what you might have overlooked. Annual eye exams, dental check ups-per month costs, bandaids, antibacterial ointment, all your copays, aspirin, whatever you come out of the pharmacy dept with...

Child Education expenses....? Does the daycare have any educational content? Buy any school supply items? How about your older child, anything educational expense-wise for him/her?

The telecomm. bill = ~400....I would expect this to get picked on but you have it justified. The UST says telco expenses can be justified if they are for "health and welfare or production of income" ...your case sounds like "production of income" to me.

Transportation is high, but necessary, have documentation.

Have the daycare documented

.....something still seems missing....

Business expenses, union dues, work uniform,......

Can't put my finger on it....

So far so good csonly, keep at it!

Tom in Colo

[csonly]

Tom, Thanks for all that. The standard mortgage/utilities, does that standard include real estate taxes and homeowners insurance? I have every receipt for daycare, I cringe everytime I have to pay that. You pay whether they go or not, holiday, sick, snow day. I'm worried about the 2nd mortgage thing. Can you give me more about that? Can I "up" the expenses you mentioned if I have to fight a POA case...like the ones I'm low on, can I increase them since I already filed? So, I work from home, on the computer all day, in my PJ's most days. I have no union dues or uniform. I also feel that I'm missing something relating to working from home, wondering if there is anything I take for granted. I also get paid on production, can that do anything for me. My checks vary hundreds of dollars from one check to the next. It's really hard working on production, I hate it. It's also really hard separating home problems from work (like this BK) since I'm home and working at the same time. Again thanks and your advise is always welcome.