UST rep is holding firm on the rent allowance

[olivies]

Our attorney has spoken with her a couple times, and he has advised her and us that he's going to take it to court to let the judge decide. She also said we could meet to go over expenses and bank statements, etc. However, the attorney told her there is no point in doing that if she's already told him she's still going to pursue the rent issue regardless of the other expenses. She's only going to look to disprove our expenses listed, not increase them.

So- this is fine with us. I would rather the judge to determine this than just agree. If he sides with us, then she'll probably want further discovery (which is nauseating to think about how much THAT will cost us in time, bank fees, attorney fees, etc.), but at that point hopefully a judge will ask her why she hasn't pursued that in the SEVEN months she's had this case listed as a possible dismissal and not allow her yet a third extension. If he doesn't side with us, my 7 will be dead in the water. Our attorney said we could send out notice that there is a potential discovery of assets, see which creditors file claims, so we know what we would be looking at in a 13 if we did convert.

Still in limbo- but looking forward to the judge making a decision on the issue here.

[clevelandmom]

I hope and pray the Judge assigned to your case tends to lead towards the debtors. Something in my gut says you're going to be just fine. I just don't feel like this Trustee is being reasonable in your situation. I am confused though - if the Judge sides with you, how is the Trustee allowed to ask for more discovery? Isn't it overwith at that point? Judge rules in your favor and UST has to let you through?

[SunshineGal]

Hi Olivies,

I spent some time looking through the opinions regarding the collection standards for rent. Unfortunately, there isn't much, but I did find this from about 10 years ago.

http://pacer.flmb.uscourts.gov/pdf-new/01-2412.pdf

The issue of rent appears at the bottom of page 7 and the courts ruled in favor of the debtor. It is also noted that the US Trustee failed to provide proof of less expensive rental units, and that the IRS allowance was based on a county wide average.

I think it will all go well for you at the hearing, hang in there! Hopefully the Judge is from a big family too and will be more understanding than the US Trustee.

SG

[mommi2many]

You're in my thoughts and prayers that the judge sides with you. This trustee is just a heartless soul. Good luck!

[olivies]

Thanks SunshineGal! I have researched thru realtor.com and the newspaper, looking for a 4BR rental within a 300sq mile radius and found ONE cheaper than what we are paying- at the IRS allowance- and it's in a drug infested and sex offender riddled neighborhood. (Truly, there were like 4 registered offenders within .3 miles of the house and 16 I think within 1 mile). The next cheapest one listed was $300 more than what we are paying.

As for the judge siding with us- it sounded like the attorney was going to bring that one issue before the judge, separately from the rest of the issues mentioned in the filed POA. Does that make sense? The trustee's POA argument against us contained more than the rent issue.
1) There was also an assertion that we were over withholding which we are confident we aren't because we made withholding adjustments after we ended up owing last year and used the IRS W2 calculator. Her calculations would have us withholding less than last year and we know how that turned out. LOL
2) There was a discrepancy about our vehicle- it's titled to my mom, the loan is in her name, she did not buy the car for us she bought it for my sister but my sister couldn't pay for it. So my mom took the car back, and was stuck with a car and payment she didn't need. We however, needed a car. So she let us take the car, and we make the payments to her. She makes her payments to the bank. UST says we have to look at that as secured debt payment and reduced our auto owner expense, but shifted the payment amount to the secured debt category. To me, that's just shifting dollars around though.
3) She reduced or actual utility average paid per month by $28 to align with the IRS standard. No biggie there I guess. I put up a clothesline, so I know we'll save at least that much.

I'm going over our Means Test and I can't imagine what further could come up as questionable. For childcare expenses, we put $135. For healthcare we put $282 (and I KNOW that's low- I spend $220 during a healthy month between my son's therapist and 2 regular prescriptions). We put $204 for cell phone- that's actually dropped some since we switched carriers the end of the summer and DH has a phone provided by his employer now. The only category that may draw question is the education expense. We put $644. At the time we filed, I had 4 in school, 1 was home schooled. They are all in school now. However, this includes sports (my kids go to a full time gifted school, it's a public school for grades 2-12 but has no high school sports program), testing fees, supplies, hot lunches, classroom contributions, field trip costs, etc. And that does not include my daughter's preschool expense which we now have.

I was not clear as to whether this would be soon, or not until February 17, our next hearing date. According to the UST filed POA statement and analysis, if our rent is allowed and we prove that we aren't over withholding - the rest of her numbers fall apart. Unless she brings up more issues. But since she's extended this twice, I would hope a judge wouldn't be so willing to grant her more time.

[olivies]

Oh- and SunshineGal- that link seems very helpful! After all, it shows precedent in FL for a judge allowing more than the IRS standard.

[SunshineGal]

Lets hope the Judge sides with you and the rest never becomes an issue. The education expenses do seem high, but with 5 kids in school and another in pre-school, it becomes reasonable. For what its worth, I really don't see where the judge would rule in the USTs favor when in order to get a rental house within the IRS allowances you would have to move to a dangerous area, not to mention the additional expenses of actually moving.

SG

[clevelandmom]

I think you should have all of your kids move in with the Trustee for one month and see how well she gets along using the IRS standards. Perhaps she needs to learn what empathy is. Just sayin' . . .

[SunshineGal]

I think you should have all of your kids move in with the Trustee for one month and see how well she gets along using the IRS standards. Perhaps she needs to learn what empathy is. Just sayin' . . .

Too funny!