Look over my expenses and give your opinion?

[sillywalks]

I am posting my expenses (along with some explanation) in the hopes that forum members will critique them and let me know which ones will be trouble!

I am filing as a 2 member household -- my son is moving out in January, but he is a full-time student. I'll be glad to provide more info if anyone needs it. Thanks!


Mortgage $1395.00
Utilities a. Electricity $275
b. water $35
c. phone $140
d. other-tv/internet $150

Home maintenance $394
(here I included lawn care, cleaning, pest control, termite control, HOA fees, general maintenance – paint, etc., tree removal *necessary)

Food $550
Clothing $150
Laundry/drycleaning $20

Medical and dental $650
-- my prescriptions are $150 a month, which will go up about 15 a month in January; chiropractor 2x month; doctor med check ups, dentist (crown for me, several fillings for son); glasses for both; therapy 2x month; last year I spent over $8000 – I averaged last year expenses and came up with $650

Transportation $800
(includes maintenance for 2 cars with $185K+ miles, gas and maintenance for my car, some gas for son – I have records for what I have spent on both cars this year, which is about $4000)

Recreation $50
Charity $75
Insurance b. life $38
d. auto $220
Taxes (car tags) $10
Payments for additional dep. $150
Other (animals/gym/job ed) $270
(food for animals and vet bills – I have records from this year)

average monthly expense= $5372
average monthly income=$4056 (from schedule I)
net income = - $1313

So far, I have gathered records from:

- Veterinarian
- My doctor
- Car care
- I have utility records, phone/internet/tv bills.
- I am planning on going to the dentist (along with my son) and getting estimates of needed work.
- I can get my chiropractor to write a recommendation for frequency (I’ve seen her for 10 years or so).

Any other proof I should gather? Where am I in trouble?

[ssmdem]

This website will give you the IRS allowable expenses. My attorney pulled several of our figures directly from here.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104627,00.html

Your medical looks high -- mine was too -- so I completely understand, but as long as you've got documentation to back that up, you're fine.

Also, if the $800 transportation figure doesn't include a car payment, I don't know if that's going to fly either. Every area is different though. Your attorney is the best place to run these by though. Mine changed several of mine -- actually made some higher because they said I was allowed more.

If it's what you actually spend though, and you've got receipts -- it just is what it is -- not too much they can say. Good luck to you!

[sillywalks]

This website will give you the IRS allowable expenses. My attorney pulled several of our figures directly from here.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104627,00.html

Your medical looks high -- mine was too -- so I completely understand, but as long as you've got documentation to back that up, you're fine.

Also, if the $800 transportation figure doesn't include a car payment, I don't know if that's going to fly either. Every area is different though. Your attorney is the best place to run these by though. Mine changed several of mine -- actually made some higher because they said I was allowed more.

If it's what you actually spend though, and you've got receipts -- it just is what it is -- not too much they can say. Good luck to you!

I beiieve I can document the medical bills pretty thoroughly, so I'm not too worried there. As for transportation, I am still working on getting a newer car (which would have payments), but the numbers I listed include:

$300 for gas (using $3.00 per gallon, which is where we are currently), $200 for maintenance (which is probably low, considering the age of the cars), $250 for money towards replacing the cars. In some places I have read, filers are allowed an amount toward the replacement of older vehicles (which is realistic, after all).

Even if they reduce my transportation costs to $496 (the standard for 2 cars), I would still be at -1,000, which is good!

Thanks!

[denisehoff99]

This is good info, thank you. But on above posted link, which expenses would apply to this chart?

Link said for 2 people:

Expense Two Persons
Food $537
Housekeeping supplies $66
Apparel & services $162
Personal care products & services $55
Miscellaneous $165
Total $985

Does this include utilities? Or just consumables and personal "care"? Should this allowance include transportation and expenses or is that a separate category? Would appreciate some clarification from experienced parties.

Thanks!

[ssmdem]

This is good info, thank you. But on above posted link, which expenses would apply to this chart?

Link said for 2 people:

Expense Two Persons
Food $537
Housekeeping supplies $66
Apparel & services $162
Personal care products & services $55
Miscellaneous $165
Total $985

Does this include utilities? Or just consumables and personal "care"? Should this allowance include transportation and expenses or is that a separate category? Would appreciate some clarification from experienced parties.

Thanks!

No utilities are not listed on this chart. There is another chart somewhere for housing costs -- but my attorney used my actual amounts for this. I doubt seriously they would reject utility expenses you give as they can easily be proven. What I submitted for housing and utilities was WAY over what the housing allowance was for my county - $1074 total --- you can't rent something decent for under $1200 here - so that's what I listed (even though we're currently living in the house we surrendered). Electricity was $250, water and sewer $65, telephone $35, garbage $20, satellite $58, natural gas $50, internet $50, and cell phone $75.

Transportation and expenses again will be different category. Google Schedule J and you can find the form that itemizes out what you will be listing as expenses when you file.

[tcreegan]

Hi sillywalks,

The one that jumped out for me was home maintenance, not that I think your number is unreasonable, but other posters have had this number less than $100 and some reports of trustees quibbling about this.

The medical should fly since you have documentation.

Transportation has two components: operation and ownership. IRS standard on operating two is $468 Ownership expense is another story, some courts allow the IRS standard of $496 for paid-off cars, some allow ~$200 for an 'old car allowance' and some say paid off = no ownership expense. Can't find what the 11th Circuit has ruled on this...
But I think you can get it to fly w/ documentation, actual expenses can be used instead of IRS standards.

Any 11th Circuit people know what is allowed for paid-off vehicle ownership expense?

Anyone chime in on home maintenance amounts?

Tom in Colo

[sillywalks]

Hi sillywalks,

The one that jumped out for me was home maintenance, not that I think your number is unreasonable, but other posters have had this number less than $100 and some reports of trustees quibbling about this.

The medical should fly since you have documentation.

Transportation has two components: operation and ownership. IRS standard on operating two is $468 Ownership expense is another story, some courts allow the IRS standard of $496 for paid-off cars, some allow ~$200 for an 'old car allowance' and some say paid off = no ownership expense. Can't find what the 11th Circuit has ruled on this...
But I think you can get it to fly w/ documentation, actual expenses can be used instead of IRS standards.

Any 11th Circuit people know what is allowed for paid-off vehicle ownership expense?

Anyone chime in on home maintenance amounts?

Tom in Colo

Hey Tom! Have you battened down the hatches? I hear Colorado is about to get slammed (again)! Ironic that this is supposed to be a drier, warmer winter, hmmm? (Though my son tells me it is NOT 'irony', lol, just 'stupidity'!) We even got a few inches last weekend here in N.Georgia. Beautiful.

Do you think documentation of home maintenance will help? I can document the lawn care (King Green + mowing), pest control, termite cost, HVAC maintenance (just paid $250 to replace something on one unit), etc. I could get a written estimate and recommendation regarding the trees in my backyard (one giant in particular is dying and has a distinct lean directly over my neighbor's house), my porches need cleaning/staining -- would it help to have those estimates?

Does documentation from an 'expert' help in these issues? For instance, the things listed above? How about for medical? If I have documentation from, say, a dentist, indicating dental work that is needed and necessary -- does that carry any weight? What about written recommendations from someone like a chiropractor? I have a back issue I have seen a chiropractor for (off and on) for 10+ years. I can go several months sometimes without it bothering me, then have to see her several times a week for a few weeks to get back to 'normal' (I'm sure she would recommend more consistent visits to maintain health).

Since schedule J is looking forward, reasonably expected expenses, if I can document a need, shouldn't it count?

On a personal level, I am thinking about the need for therapy... With the risk of sounding like a complete wreck (well, maybe I am!), I have Major Depressive disorder, with recurrent severe episodes, possibly ruled treatment-resistant, along with dysthymia, PMDD, seasonal affective disorder and complicating factors (hypothyroidism and fibromyalgia). Don't I sound like fun! I go through cycles where I do okay without therapy, but I have needed to get back to it for a while (no money for it). To me, obviously, it is a legitimate and necessary expense that allows me to function reasonably well -- will the trustee be persuaded of the same? I can document that two years ago my depression led to my having to take short term disability leave from work for 4 months, which is obviously NOT ideal for maintaining financial soundness!

I don't mean to share TMI, but it is a real concern for me....

[pavlikclan]

I would be concerned with the maintenance as well. I am not picking on you btw just asking out of curiosity but things like staining the deck, cutting the lawn, cleaning........could the trustee rule these as unnecessary expenses or something? The tree and pest control I can get because a tree hanging over someone else's properly could cause a big issue if you don't know what you are doing and try to remove it and sometimes even if you do know what you are doing and try to remove it lol. We learned this the hard way last Easter trying to remove a limb (and eventually the rest of the tree) at my dad's house, limb was over a power line. We had 6 people pulling when it was cut to try to pull it enough so it wouldn't hit the line. It still hit the line ripped it off the house....ooops!

[momofthree]

Honestly, I think your home maintenance expense will raise flags. However, you're including HOA fees in there. I'd list those separately & then also list around $100 home maintenance expense as well so you don't draw too much attention to it. I'd also leave out the "other expense" for your gym membership and pets. You aren't allowed a "replacement savings" for your older cars, so just claim the standard IRS expense of $496.

Even after changing all of that, your budget will still be at least $600 in the negative each month, and it will be much easier to fly under the radar.

As it stands now, your budget has so many "iffy" sections, it's going to REALLY grab the trustees attention. If it just has the higher medical with all your other expenses reasonable, it will be much easier to slide through without objection. Not to mention, you're flying around trying to get proof of all of these expenses, probably driving yourself crazy, when you could just claim a reasonable expense, still be (very) negative and proceed forward. This, of course, is just my opinion.

[sillywalks]

I would be concerned with the maintenance as well. I am not picking on you btw just asking out of curiosity but things like staining the deck, cutting the lawn, cleaning........could the trustee rule these as unnecessary expenses or something? The tree and pest control I can get because a tree hanging over someone else's properly could cause a big issue if you don't know what you are doing and try to remove it and sometimes even if you do know what you are doing and try to remove it lol. We learned this the hard way last Easter trying to remove a limb (and eventually the rest of the tree) at my dad's house, limb was over a power line. We had 6 people pulling when it was cut to try to pull it enough so it wouldn't hit the line. It still hit the line ripped it off the house....ooops!

I don't feel picked on! That's why I put up the expenses, to see what would raise flags. I know my neighbor would love for me to get that tree removed! If it was not dying, I would not be so worried -- and so big! Definitely not taking that puppy down myself!

I don't know what the trustee will think about the cleaning/cutting lawn, etc. I know the cleaning is probably controversial, anyway -- it's one of the concessions and crutches I have accepted in my life to help me function with my depression. The lawn care maybe is easier to justify, in that I do not have a mower and I had knee surgery this year? And my neighbors would come after me with pitchforks (garden rakes?) if it did not get done? LOL

I'm glad you survived your tree removal! Thanks.

[sillywalks]

Honestly, I think your home maintenance expense will raise flags. However, you're including HOA fees in there. I'd list those separately & then also list around $100 home maintenance expense as well so you don't draw too much attention to it. I'd also leave out the "other expense" for your gym membership and pets. You aren't allowed a "replacement savings" for your older cars, so just claim the standard IRS expense of $496.

Even after changing all of that, your budget will still be at least $600 in the negative each month, and it will be much easier to fly under the radar.

As it stands now, your budget has so many "iffy" sections, it's going to REALLY grab the trustees attention. If it just has the higher medical with all your other expenses reasonable, it will be much easier to slide through without objection. Not to mention, you're flying around trying to get proof of all of these expenses, probably driving yourself crazy, when you could just claim a reasonable expense, still be (very) negative and proceed forward. This, of course, is just my opinion.

Momofthree, I really appreciate your input. Where should I list the HOA fees? This process is befuddling and somewhat frustrating -- 'they' say that Schedule J is forward-looking and reasonable expenses (not the pre-bankruptcy only-survival-stuff), but I cannot include the real expenses for my animals? For lawn care? All that stuff? Things that realistically happen and have to be paid for...ugh!

I know I do have a significant negative, so I have some play room. I'm just worried if I trim things down too much, that the trustee will surprise me by questioning something unexpected and I'll end up in Chapter 13. <sigh> Flying under the radar is VERY important, though, so I will rework my numbers with an eye to your suggestions -- thank you!

As far as the older car replacement -- apparently some districts allow a filer who owns a car more than 6 years old and no loan to claim the 'ownership' standard cost, some half of the standard, some none -- I'm not sure what my district says yet!

Thank you for your input -- the more input the better!

[ssmdem]

As far as the older car replacement -- apparently some districts allow a filer who owns a car more than 6 years old and no loan to claim the 'ownership' standard cost, some half of the standard, some none -- I'm not sure what my district says yet!

Thank you for your input -- the more input the better!

I know mine didn't allow the ownership cost BUT they do allow an additional $200 on the operating expenses, so essentially works out to about half. That alone was enough to allow me to pass the means test.

[sillywalks]

I found this:

"Debtors located outside of the Fifth, Seventh, and Eighth Circuits who operate vehicles not subject to a loan or lease may deduct an additional $200 if the vehicle is owned by the debtor, and is older than six (6) model years or has more than 75,000 miles." from here -- http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...ne_by_line.pdf

Being in the eleventh district (I think) means I can deduct $200 for both cars (unless I find one to purchase before filing). That's good....

Reading further, it appears this $200 amount is in addition to operation expense, not ownership -- outside of the 5th, 7t, 8th circuits, you cannot take this additional $200, but you are allowed the ownership expense whether or not you have a loan/lease on a car (which is better than the $200 option!).

Clear as mud?

*I'm in the 21st district!

[diesillady]

Are you over the mean test amount and that is your main concern and trying to reach a DIM figure? I use the BK mean test amount per the form 22A for expense amount for my county of residence. However my expense where higher than that but since my income per house hold member was below abuse level it was a non issue. One thing I learned if you say your house is five members you better have claim then on your 1040 for the prior year.

[sillywalks]

Are you over the mean test amount and that is your main concern and trying to reach a DIM figure? I use the BK mean test amount per the form 22A for expense amount for my county of residence. However my expense where higher than that but since my income per house hold member was below abuse level it was a non issue. One thing I learned if you say your house is five members you better have claim then on your 1040 for the prior year.

I have claimed my son every year, so that is not a problem. I am over the median income, but I come out -$1000 (with the transportation changes) on the means (I don't have to go past part 2). I'm more concerned about schedule I and J, since that seems to be what the trustee really looks at at the 341.