Got a Presumption of Abuse Letter in the mail today.....

[drowningNIL]

Fallen, I don't think so re the fuel or medical. What I do think is the 26 yr old house and maintenance. We have two acres of land, septic system, 26 yr old A/c and furnace, 26 year old roof. Lots of trees that need attention, gutters that need repairs, 11 year old kitchen appliances, and I know I can think of more that we foresee falling apart in the very near future. I think $150/mo for home maintenance is ridiculously low. I wonder how high that could be bumped up.

I do want to add for Costco and AAA and then gifts for kids too. How much can I factor in for bdays, Easter, Christmas etc?

[Fallonedward]

I am a family of 5 and listed below is how we placed everything and my attorney told me we should have no issues, we are filing tomorrow.

Personal Living Expenses
Local Standard : $1633

Food $900
Clothing $202
Laundry/dry cleaning $125
Recreation $98
Haircuts, Hygiene Products, Makeup, etc $115
Birthday's / Christmas $50
Sams Club Membership * $3
Education Expenses $140
Grand Total $1633


Utilities
Local Standard : $600

Electricity & Heating Fuel $335
Water & Sewer $70
Garbage $17
HOA $10
Home Maintenance $95
Telephone $48
Grand Total $575

Housing
Local Standard : $1433

Mortgage (inc RE Taxes) $1772
Homeowners Insurance - $137
B of A Home Equity Payment $360
Grand Total $2269

Vehicle Operating Costs
Local Standard : $588

Fuel for Car's $280
License Plate / DL* Renewal - Jan & July* ($280 yr) $23
AAA Yearly Dues $14
Car Insurance $309
(Live in a state that looks at your credit score, this just went up this past month $95 a month)
Grand Total $626

Ownership Costs
Local Standard : $496

Car Payment $375.02
Grand Total $375.02


Health Care expenses
Local Standard : 300

Medical Coverage Insurance $207.12
Medical Expenses $113.56
Prescription Drugs $98.7
Diabetic medical supplies $21.67
Dental expense $120
Grand Total $561.05

Other Expenses

Cable/Internet $85
Cell Service $165
Life Insurance Contribution $24.02
Grand Total $274.02


Combined Gross Wages $5546.98

Payroll Taxes $777.62
Average monthly income $4769.36
Monthly net income -1365.73

[drowningNIL]

Fallen thanks for all the info. Odd thing is our attorney had no problems with our schedules....(that fact kind of makes me nervous now LOL) and all along he told us not to worry...to sleep well...we are garden variety bk..it will go through no problem...... ugh. I just hope he can be reached TOMORROW so we can find out what to do next.

anybody know what the next step is? how do we fight this?

[Fallonedward]

Look over your contract that you signed with your attorney and make sure that it covers these types of things and if so march into his office and demand to see him and get some answers. good luck

Fallen thanks for all the info. Odd thing is our attorney had no problems with our schedules....(that fact kind of makes me nervous now LOL) and all along he told us not to worry...to sleep well...we are garden variety bk..it will go through no problem...... ugh. I just hope he can be reached TOMORROW so we can find out what to do next.

anybody know what the next step is? how do we fight this?

[Fallonedward]

My attorney told me not to worry as well, but I'm not a trusting soul. I have been reading these forums and asking questions like crazy and I now feel like I'm in control of my destiny because I'm informed. If the trustee objects to anything I have receipts to back everything up, plus a 3 page letter that our diabetic doctor wrote saying if the trustee disallows any of the medical he better be willing to pay for daily visits to the ER for my son

Fallen thanks for all the info. Odd thing is our attorney had no problems with our schedules....(that fact kind of makes me nervous now LOL) and all along he told us not to worry...to sleep well...we are garden variety bk..it will go through no problem...... ugh. I just hope he can be reached TOMORROW so we can find out what to do next.

anybody know what the next step is? how do we fight this?

[drowningNIL]

We will be calling first thing in the morning and hope to get to speak to the attorney. He said from the start that if we got flagged we would fight it. He told us only about 1 out of 10 gets flagged and didn't think we would. He is an experienced BK lawyer and seemed to know what he was doing. He made us feel confident.

I don't like how this letter came to us, either. It has his office return address on it, but there was no cover from them or explanation just this print out about the abuse almost like a here you go you're on your own now.

Hopefully we'll get more info and direction tomorrow.

[backtoschool]

We will be calling first thing in the morning and hope to get to speak to the attorney. He said from the start that if we got flagged we would fight it. He told us only about 1 out of 10 gets flagged and didn't think we would. He is an experienced BK lawyer and seemed to know what he was doing. He made us feel confident.

I don't like how this letter came to us, either. It has his office return address on it, but there was no cover from them or explanation just this print out about the abuse almost like a here you go you're on your own now.

Hopefully we'll get more info and direction tomorrow.

I think that because your loan deduction and a couple of the other discretionary expenses would put you in a chapter 13 range if they were eliminated from the schedule or reduced, the US Trustee automatically filed presumption of abuse. Presumption can be fought, and I think you can add expenses in certain areas (medical, including over the counter medicine, etc) and take expense away from controversial areas (dancing lessons) and come out with the numbers you need. I think this can be fought and won, but you need to get your discretionary expenses down and your "necessary" expenses up (medical, utilities, insurance, etc....)

[Fallonedward]

BTS, your right on target...You really need to go to school for bankruptcy law you rock

I think that because your loan deduction and a couple of the other discretionary expenses would put you in a chapter 13 range if they were eliminated from the schedule or reduced, the US Trustee automatically filed presumption of abuse. Presumption can be fought, and I think you can add expenses in certain areas (medical, including over the counter medicine, etc) and take expense away from controversial areas (dancing lessons) and come out with the numbers you need. I think this can be fought and won, but you need to get your discretionary expenses down and your "necessary" expenses up (medical, utilities, insurance, etc....)

[italiana66]

same thing happened to us...the trustee asked for a bunch of documents..and i mean tons of documents...we also gave him a report from my neurosugeon about my medical condition...he was silent for about 2 and half months until he said that he will go on with the dismiss...now we wait to go to court...also he made his decision without looking at all the info he asked for because he told our lawyer that he was still waiting for them...he replied we sent it to you 2 months ago...and now we wait...we filed in feb 2010

[drowningNIL]

I think that because your loan deduction and a couple of the other discretionary expenses would put you in a chapter 13 range if they were eliminated from the schedule or reduced, the US Trustee automatically filed presumption of abuse. Presumption can be fought, and I think you can add expenses in certain areas (medical, including over the counter medicine, etc) and take expense away from controversial areas (dancing lessons) and come out with the numbers you need. I think this can be fought and won, but you need to get your discretionary expenses down and your "necessary" expenses up (medical, utilities, insurance, etc....)

Ok...thanks. I just don't have more to add that I can think of especially now that I'm in a bit of a panic.

Kids aren't allowed any lessons? There isn't much offered free through the grade school at all. Should I just scratch the dance and go with gifts? I figured gifts are more frivolous than dancing. I didn't list AAA or Costco membership - just a little but anything adds up. I don't have more oop medical. As I said the house maintenance should probably be higher - salt for the softener, lawn stuff, pool stuff, savings for the new furnace and ac we are on the absolute brink of needing..... is that allowable? The insurance is all directly taken out of my husband's paycheck so nothing to add on there.

Ideas for more expenses? I'm sure there is more hiding here and there I just have to think of them.

I am miffed the attorney didn't even say anything about J. He was good with it.

Thanks for suggestions & the help so far.

[drowningNIL]

same thing happened to us...the trustee asked for a bunch of documents..and i mean tons of documents...we also gave him a report from my neurosugeon about my medical condition...he was silent for about 2 and half months until he said that he will go on with the dismiss...now we wait to go to court...also he made his decision without looking at all the info he asked for because he told our lawyer that he was still waiting for them...he replied we sent it to you 2 months ago...and now we wait...we filed in feb 2010

Italiana, I have been following your thread. It's all so crappy. I hope everything works out for you.

I registered for Pacer hoping maybe I'd find some info/explanation - something there. Not sure where but so far nothing. It says we're "Awaiting discharge".

[backtoschool]

Here are some other legitimate expenses that will look better than the discretionary ones:

Eye glasses
Dental appointments
cough medicine, tylenol, antacids, (this was a HUGE extra expense for me since the bk stress turned my ulcer into a bleeding ulcer), any over the counter medicine.

Dues and fees

All licenses

Car, home, fire, health, life, travel, and personal insurance

Therapy, physical therapy, chiropractor

[drowningNIL]

OMG! ok..so I registered for Pacer - waited an hour + to get my log in and was clulessly poking around over there....found the how to use it guide here on the forums which I am so thankful for because I saw THIS entered just TODAY!!!!!!

Docket Text
11/03/2010 19 United States Trustee's Statement that a Motion to Dismiss is Not Appropriate Filed by U.S. Trustee **********.

The letter I have is dated 10/29. SO WOW. What happened/!?!? Is this it then?!!?!? They worked it out and the snail mail was slow??!?!? OMG I feel such relief.

I LOVE THIS FORUM!

[ccsjoe]

Woohoo! This is what you wanted. UST is abandoning your case.

[drowningNIL]

Woohoo! This is what you wanted. UST is abandoning your case.

Joe LOL OK thank you for that because I was just over there re reading it for the 5th time thinking - does this really say what I hope it says!?!?

So that is it then? Or could there be more to come from him down the pike?