Property Transfer 2 year

[acro68]

Is it 2 years for Property Transfer from commencement, date of signing the form, or of the 341 meeting? How close to the 2 year mark do you consider important? If it is 2 years +/- week, is it still relevant for listing. Will the Trustee normally care about transfer at 2 years +/- 1 week?

[backtoschool]

A trustee can go back more that two years if there is reason to believe that fraudulent transfers to family members or other insiders have occurred and assets are being hidden. In New York for example, a trustee can go back six years if there is reason to believe assets were put out of reach in preparation of filing. The amount above two years depends on district, but most districts give the trustee some ability to extend the look back period if fraud is suspected.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Is it 2 years for Property Transfer from commencement, date of signing the form, or of the 341 meeting? How close to the 2 year mark do you consider important? If it is 2 years +/- week, is it still relevant for listing. Will the Trustee normally care about transfer at 2 years +/- 1 week?

In bk, time is your friend. The further you can distance from a property transfer, the better. Was this a substantial transfer, to whom (family or friend) and under what reason. If the Trustee suspects an 'orchestrated bk" as fraud, they can look back ten years. More info and the timeline would help. 'Hub

[tobee43]

A trustee can go back more that two years if there is reason to believe that fraudulent transfers to family members or other insiders have occurred and assets are being hidden. In New York for example, a trustee can go back six years if there is reason to believe assets were put out of reach in preparation of filing. The amount above two years depends on district, but most districts have give the trustee some ability to extend the look back period if fraud is suspected.

this is absolutely true...we were JUST past the 2 year mark...however, i had to show how the "deed" was listed 15 years prior....and this state is usually ONLY 2 years!! how did they know...i told them...i wanted everything up front and honest so there was nothing to come back and bite us.

[tobee43]

In bk, time is your friend. The further you can distance from a property transfer, the better. Was this a substantial transfer, to whom (family or friend) and under what reason. If the Trustee suspects an 'orchestrated bk" as fraud, they can look back ten years. More info and the timeline would help. 'Hub

hence the more we provided back up for the 15 years so the trustee could see how the deed read at that point...we proved that we were only 1/4 owners the entire life of the property and didn't do a quit claim just for the heck of it...actually the other 2 owners ended up losing money because we were the only owners with a mortgage and the other owners paid it off in full as per their atty's advise so that the trustee would not have them do it at the time of our bk....in the case were there is multiply owners those owners are given the opportunity to buy the share of the debtors portion out at the time of a bk...or as these other owners did...they paid off the mortgage and it was valued at over double what the actual property was now worth.

when all was said and done...we didn't even have to go through that mess since the property was negative equity...our only position was to help protect the other owners.

[acro68]

So, how do you unscramble eggs that look one way, but taste a different way? Just at the 2 year mark; agreed, time is my friend. Have there been any luck aligning appearances with the real intent, the intent 2 years ago is different now, is there any case history in the forum that I could read? Did not go the correct thing at the time on cashing a check, bad decision, still used the money to pay off debts - paper trail is in bad condition - creditors were happy at the time, and for good time afterward - not so happy recently...

[backtoschool]

So, how do you unscramble eggs that look one way, but taste a different way? Just at the 2 year mark; agreed, time is my friend. Have there been any luck aligning appearances with the real intent, the intent 2 years ago is different now, is there any case history in the forum that I could read? Did not go the correct thing at the time on cashing a check, bad decision, still used the money to pay off debts - paper trail is in bad condition - creditors were happy at the time, and for good time afterward - not so happy recently...

Can you give us a few more details? Here are the red flags the trustee and the US trustee (if you are over median) will be looking for:

1. Was the transfer of the property to a family member.

2. Did you sell the property for fair market value to the family member?

3. Were you technically insolvent when you transferred the property.

4. What did you do with the proceeds of selling/transferring the property.

[acro68]

1. Was the transfer of the property to a family member. - No

2. Did you sell the property for fair market value to the family member? - N.A.

3. Were you technically insolvent when you transferred the property. - technically insolvent - need some help here

4. What did you do with the proceeds of selling/transferring the property. - insider converted to cash, I used the cash to pay my bills and my ongoing expenses. Records can show that more bills were paid than my fixed income can support...paper trail looks bad.

[backtoschool]

1. Was the transfer of the property to a family member. - No

2. Did you sell the property for fair market value to the family member? - N.A.

3. Were you technically insolvent when you transferred the property. - technically insolvent - need some help here

4. What did you do with the proceeds of selling/transferring the property. - insider converted to cash, I used the cash to pay my bills and my ongoing expenses. Records can show that more bills were paid than my fixed income can support...paper trail looks bad.

I need some clarification of what you mean when you say the "paper trail looks bad". Paying bills with the proceeds is not a problem necessarily. What are you referring to as the "bad paper trail"? If the person you sold the property to is not a family member do they have a clearly recognizable insider relationship to you? Was the property sold at under market value? Were you way behind on your debts when you sold the property? These are the things the trustee will look at.

[acro68]

What are you referring to as the "bad paper trail"? The property was sold at market value to a party, check for purchase was coverted to cash by insider, I paid bills with the money.

If the person you sold the property to is not a family member do they have a clearly recognizable insider relationship to you? No, they are not related...

Was the property sold at under market value? Sold at market value.

Were you way behind on your debts when you sold the property? Too many accumulated bills, forclosure, on going medical bills.

These are the things the trustee will look at. I'm sure he has seen it all...

[backtoschool]

I think there are some red flags in your case that might cause the trustee to go beyond the 2 year look back. Here are the red flags as I see them based on your responses:

1. An insider converted the check to cash.

2. Your home was already in foreclosure.

If the person who bought the property has a relationship to the person who cashed the check, that could be an issue as well.

In any case, people sell things when they are in bad financial shape, and I don't see any deliberately fraudulent or glaring hiding of assets here, which is really what the trustee is looking for. A hard nosed trustee might try to go after the people who gave you the cash though and claw some of it back if you are under the two years. I would definitely wait the full two years from the cash transfer minimum.

[acro68]

If the person who bought the property has a relationship to the person who cashed the check, that could be an issue as well. - The purchaser is an outsider to myself and insider.

In any case, people sell things when they are in bad financial shape, and I don't see any deliberately fraudulent or glaring hiding of assets here, which is really what the trustee is looking for. A hard nosed trustee might try to go after the people who gave you the cash though and claw some of it back if you are under the two years. I would definitely wait the full two years from the cash transfer minimum. - Thanks for the advice...it helps understanding the risks.

[acro68]

How would he claw some of it back? Is the insider at risk?

[backtoschool]

How would he claw some of it back? Is the insider at risk?

Outsider buys property from you and gives you a check. Insider takes your check and gives you undocumented cash. It now looks like you just gave insider a preferential payment. A hard nosed trustee may try to go after the insider for the check you gave him/her and call it either a fraudulent transfer of cash assets or a preferential payment of a loan. The trustee would send the insider a letter demanding payment in the amount of the check you gave them. (I am calling your endorsed check, a payment to the insider). This is not necessarily going to happen, but trustees are trained to look for these type of transfers back and forth between people.

[acro68]

Thanks for the info!

In addition to demanding the money, are there additional legal risks?

Would they dismiss the petition based on this, i.e. would they go after the money and approve the petition?