US Trustee Presumption of Abuse

[tobee43]

i thought a 7???? but then i can't read until 11 am...that's when the coffee finally kicks in!

[backtoschool]

I'm confused - is this a 7 or 13?

they are trying for a 7.

[JEM]

If you started the savings over a year ago, they will not be touched by the trustee. It is 529 accounts that get started right before filing that the trustee takes over as assets.

$165 a month for cell phone should be fine as long as there are 3-4 phones on the plan. If that is only for 2 phones, that would be considered high.

That's what we pay. For 2 phones.

Verizon-1400 minutes. (Dh uses a good portion of that for work) Both phones have data plans. With all of the taxes and garbage they add on, it comes out to $165/mo. for 2 phones.

[backtoschool]

That's what we pay. For 2 phones.

Verizon-1400 minutes. (Dh uses a good portion of that for work) Both phones have data plans. With all of the taxes and garbage they add on, it comes out to $165/mo. for 2 phones.

If a filer is close to being kicked into a chapter 13, the trustee will often question 3g phone plans with unlimited data as a necessity. Same for premium cable. Cutting phone plans and premium cable are often enough to push someone into a 13.

[Fallonedward]

These accounts were all started at least 9 + years ago, so that is good news.

I have all 5 of us with phones

If you started the savings over a year ago, they will not be touched by the trustee. It is 529 accounts that get started right before filing that the trustee takes over as assets.

$165 a month for cell phone should be fine as long as there are 3-4 phones on the plan. If that is only for 2 phones, that would be considered high.

[tobee43]

These accounts were all started at least 9 + years ago, so that is good news.

I have all 5 of us with phones

wow....all 5..i guess nowadays everyone needs a phone. i just don't know what we did before...LOL!! now if i had kids i would MAKE them carry one.

our's is like 90 a month and it's unlimited everything but verizon was one of our work accounts and we still get 17% discount on the entire bill. so 165 seems somewhat reasonable for all those phones i think.

[justbroke]

B2S, isn't the means and schedules run through the same software automatically claim "Presumption of Abuse"? I think it does when it crosses a certain line. Does not mean it is reality, but then causes a bit of proof. I've seen this here before, and usually it is a software computation and not the real numbers. Most prove otherwise.

I know I'm late, but the Region 21 United States Trustee's (UST) minions use a specialized spreadsheet, which I replicated for my own use after seeing attached as an exhibited to a Motion to Dismiss under 707(b)(3), that they use. It specifically shows what was entered on Schedule I/J and the "offset" that the UST is using. I personally used it to work EVERY scenario from them disallowing an expense, to reducing an expense, to make sure that I was still eligible.

There are expenses that I see, including the cellular phones, food, clothing, that are high. You do have the benefit that in some areas, the Trustee actually increased your deduction (to be fair!). As other posters wrote, your 401(k) deduction is a big red flag and shouldn't have been on your Schedule J.

You are way over the median, as you know, and your attorney should have known that these items would be attacked. I have over a $400/month cellular phone bill (don't ask) and I only put $150 on my Schedule J because I know what the threshold is.

Again, having the spreadsheet helps so that you can experiment with what the Trustee might question. It wouldn't take the UST "much" poking to get you in a Chapter 13, since you have multiple questionable expenses.

If your attorney is going to fight for you, and you have a defensible explanation, then go for it!

[momofthree]

If you look at the US trustee website, the trustee has clearly lowered each section to the IRS standards. He's not objecting to certain expenses so much as requiring you to fit those expenses within the IRS standards. I'm guessing you're a family of 5 since that's the IRS standard amounts that he used for each category. It sounds to me like he's playing quite fair as far as trustees go.

As far as the income having such a huge discrepancy ($900/mo), are you paid bi-weekly? Do you get a tax refund each year?

Here is the website for IRS standards if you want to check it out: http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...anstesting.htm

[Fallonedward]

Do you know where I could get my hands on one of these spreadsheets?

I know I'm late, but the Region 21 United States Trustee's (UST) minions use a specialized spreadsheet, which I replicated for my own use after seeing attached as an exhibited to a Motion to Dismiss under 707(b)(3), that they use. It specifically shows what was entered on Schedule I/J and the "offset" that the UST is using. I personally used it to work EVERY scenario from them disallowing an expense, to reducing an expense, to make sure that I was still eligible.

There are expenses that I see, including the cellular phones, food, clothing, that are high. You do have the benefit that in some areas, the Trustee actually increased your deduction (to be fair!). As other posters wrote, your 401(k) deduction is a big red flag and shouldn't have been on your Schedule J.

You are way over the median, as you know, and your attorney should have known that these items would be attacked. I have over a $400/month cellular phone bill (don't ask) and I only put $150 on my Schedule J because I know what the threshold is.

Again, having the spreadsheet helps so that you can experiment with what the Trustee might question. It wouldn't take the UST "much" poking to get you in a Chapter 13, since you have multiple questionable expenses.

If your attorney is going to fight for you, and you have a defensible explanation, then go for it!

[justbroke]

Do you know where I could get my hands on one of these spreadsheets?

I personally recreated it and have it. I was supposed to post it to my blog. If enough people ask for it... I'll post it to my blog this weekend.

[Dewkitty]

A lot of the cell phone plans now require things like additional data packages, so besides the $10 for an extra line, you've got at least another $15 for a data package. We have two cell phone bills, one is filled with 5 lines (mine, my daughter's, my step-son's, my mother's and an extra basic line at $10/month used for emergencies) and my husband's line is on a separate account. The combined bills are about $310. Our attorney didn't even blink at that, and our paperwork says no presumption of abuse. I guess it just depends on where you live and the guidelines the trustee goes by?

[Wantmypeace]

I'd love to see that spreadsheet, as well!

[csonly]

We are in the same boat, we did NOT get the motion yet, but I'm sure we will. We did get a statement filed on Pacer yesterday and (from what I can understand) it only questions the income being over median. I'm curious if, in your case, a statement was filed before the motion and if so, was the statement leaning on income and expenses or just income? I hope it all works out for the both of us and I'm sure we will learn more from this forum as we go along. They have been my saving grace over the last few months. My BK has had hiccups from the get go.

[justbroke]

I'd love to see that spreadsheet, as well!

I don't have enough space on this site to post it, and the site won't accept an Excel Spreadsheet anyhow. I need to find a place to host it, but I'm just not motivated to look. I have had two computer hard drive crashes in the last week and I've been busy fixing things and restoring from backups... when I found them.

[olivies]

Hang in there OP. We are also battling with our Ch7 and the UST. I try to remind myself that everything always fits neatly on paper- much like it does when you do your own budgeting. But the reality is often a much different picture, unfortunately. What does your attorney suggest for the next course of action?