is this fraud?

[mgs0987]

OK just a general question....my brother is looking to file bankruptcy. His income is above the limit to file a chapter 7 in ohio (being single, that is). Out of NOWHERE he decides that he is getting married...long story short he is planning on getting married THEN filing chapter 7 bankruptcy. I guess his income is below the limit for a married couple to file bk 7. Isn't this fraud? I mean, I charged some stuff on my card 90 days ago and that can be looked at as fraud. But, come on now...if he gets away with this then that isn't fair. Not that I don't want him to get married, just the fact that he is CLEARLY taking advantage of the system to wipe out debt. How low of him, really. But anyways....any thoughts on this? He even flat out told us that he needs to file bankruptcy. Oh, and she needs health insurance. What great reasons to wed, huh? lol.

[keepmine]

I don't see any fraud here. You can get married for whatever reason you please.

[backtoschool]

Getting married is not fraud. I agree with keepmine. People can get married for any reason they want to.

[tcreegan]

Hello mgs0987,

The problem is proving intent, next to impossible for a creditor to do.....as long as the marriage certificate holds up they are OK

...the bigger question is does she know?

Tom in Colo

[mgs0987]

I agree that people can get married for whatever reason they please, I just was wondering about whether or not a trustee would be like 'oh, you just got married and a week later you're filing bankruptcy....hmmmm..' only reason I ask is it seems fishy to get married and file because your income was too high to file as a single person. Not saying they are getting married to file, just in general. Although, they are getting married to go bankrupt together. does anyone see what i'm saying here? Basically, how are you gonna get away with being single and over the income limit to being married and just under the limit to file bk 7 without raising a red flag? I mean, I guess it doesn't matter I was just curious if that would be an issue or not.

[newbie2]

I agree that people can get married for whatever reason they please, I just was wondering about whether or not a trustee would be like 'oh, you just got married and a week later you're filing bankruptcy....hmmmm..' only reason I ask is it seems fishy to get married and file because your income was too high to file as a single person. Not saying they are getting married to file, just in general. Although, they are getting married to go bankrupt together. does anyone see what i'm saying here? Basically, how are you gonna get away with being single and over the income limit to being married and just under the limit to file bk 7 without raising a red flag? I mean, I guess it doesn't matter I was just curious if that would be an issue or not.

A trustee isn't going to ask, nor care. Sometimes filing for bankruptcy is all about timing. The timing (after marriage) is right for your brother. The trustee won't judge them, perhaps you will cut them a bit of slack also :-)

[AlmostAmos]

newbie2 is right on. Timing is everything. If I were him, I'd work EVERYTHING I CAN to my advantage. Heck, I'd marry her & divorce her the day after my case closes - unless she makes a mean sammich.

[drowning123]

newbie2 is right on. Timing is everything. If I were him, I'd work EVERYTHING I CAN to my advantage. Heck, I'd marry her & divorce her the day after my case closes - unless she makes a mean sammich.

LOL. Wall Street fat cats are at it again talking about million dollar bonuses, so why can't we do what we can to take our fair share.

[rjmwx81]

He needs to remember that her income is going to count against him, though, even if he files individually.

[researchnerd]

There really isn't an income "limit" for filing BK, unless your brother is a bazillionnaire. If his income is over the median for his jurisdiction and family size, his case may be scrutinized more closely, but he can still file. The means test is more important. If he genuinely comes up negative on the means test, and his income is over median for 1 person but under median for a family size of 2, he may get it approved without too much trouble.

[wnguyen]

mgs0987

I think your brother is playing the system here. I'm not in the position to determine if it's fraud or not, it's the laws to decide. Allow me to side step a little bit. Yes, people get married for whatever reasons they please. While it's probably not a fraud to get married for many purposes (money, status, advancement, for instance), it probably is in immigration. Many people, particularly outside of the country, get married just to get a green card or a legal status here in the states and that's a problem under the view of USCIS. To them, it might be fraud.

Back to your brother, I think his wife-to-be's income is probably low to keep both of them below the median. He's smart planning for his bk and it's up to the trustee and creditors viewing and proving his intent as fraud, as Tom in Colo points out. BK and marriage each has its own consequences. The laws are not perfect. The system is not perfect. People still find the flaws and ways to get around it. Anyway, for him, aren't you happy and supportive (not in terms of fraud) ? He's your brother. Blood is thicker than water.

[LaurieM]

Bankruptcy planning at its finest

[rjmwx81]

Of course, in a few years, the brother might discover that a Chapter 13 would have been cheaper than alimony payments.

[BKDebby]

mgs0987, how long as he known this woman? If he just met her a few days ago, I'd say yes, it's fraud. If they've been dating awhile and talking about marriage, not fraud.

[AngelinaCatHub]

This is one of the classic most funniest (peculiar?) threads I have read. LOL.

First, her SS card will not be correct unless she can get one sooner than your 341, so the marriage certificate will have to be filed. And by the way FILED!! One thing holding our discharge up was we use different sir names (legal) so our SS cards were not of the same name nor our taxes. We had to Court file our certificate.

Also while laughing my way through this thread, yes, bk is no reason to marry as marriage and bk usually go in opposite order. Also the first cause for a divorce is marriage. LOL.

Now I hope this is just a wise timing situation as if it is a constructive fraud, the bk may survive, but the husband might not.

Hope it all goes well for them. Perhaps the reception could be held in the 341 chamber? 'Hub