Means Test - Line 23: I'm freaking out.

[mb10240]

Regarding "Vehicle Ownership or Lease Expense".

I'm filing individually. My household has two vehicles - my car, which I'm still making payments on and is titled individually in my name and my wife's car, which she owns individually and is paid in full.

Do I get to include "ownership or lease expenses" for my wife's car? It could make the difference between Chapter 7 and Chapter 13.

EDIT: I did some research, and in the 8th circuit (which I'm in), debtors can take the ownership expense on line 23 even if they don't have a lien on the vehicle. However, that only answers one part of my question -- can I take the ownership expense for the other vehicle despite the fact that my wife owns it?

[mb10240]

I still don't have an answer, but I think I was able to solve my problem even if I'm not able to do that...

[scorpion35]

Regarding "Vehicle Ownership or Lease Expense".

I'm filing individually. My household has two vehicles - my car, which I'm still making payments on and is titled individually in my name and my wife's car, which she owns individually and is paid in full.

Do I get to include "ownership or lease expenses" for my wife's car? It could make the difference between Chapter 7 and Chapter 13.

EDIT: I did some research, and in the 8th circuit (which I'm in), debtors can take the ownership expense on line 23 even if they don't have a lien on the vehicle. However, that only answers one part of my question -- can I take the ownership expense for the other vehicle despite the fact that my wife owns it?

i think u can't .u can use her monthly payment if she had one but not the operating expenses.
but i can be wrong.sorry if i am

[tcreegan]

Hi mrbrown,

According to the UST instructions for the means-test, folks in the 8th circuit can claim ownership expense on a paid off car, but they don't get the $200 'old car' expense. http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa...ne_by_line.pdf

But this doesn't answer the question about the wife's car. If you were in a community property state, a 50% cut on the car would be easy to justify, but I am not sure how it is done in an equitable distribution state...

Tom in Colo

[mb10240]

Hi mrbrown,

According to the UST instructions for the means-test, folks in the 8th circuit can claim ownership expense on a paid off car, but they don't get the $200 'old car' expense.

I'm assuming the $200 "old car" expense would be included in the "operating expenses"? This may completely solve any problems, if that's the case, my DMI would be well under the "presumption of abuse," and I could stop the digging for additional eligible expenses.

[justbroke]

If you are filing individually and have assets, like cars, you are best filing with an attorney! Knowing what's allowed is half the battle. Having said that, if you're under the median (with your spouse's income included), you're likely to have fewer challenges, but with a spouse, who I'll assume works, and being over-the-median income, then you are going to have issues with spousal income. However, you can offset the income if your spouse pays for the car anyhow, so this shouldn't be an issue at all.

For those wondering, if you are filing individually, you must list your spouses income in Column B of the Means Test (B22A). However, to the extent that the spouse pays their own bills, you can offset the expenses on Line 17 (Marital Adjustments).

[mb10240]

If you are filing individually and have assets, like cars, you are best filing with an attorney!

But I am an attorney! lol (I just don't regularly practice bankruptcy... Took the class in law school, though!)

That being said, don't have too many individual assets: my car. All of the "big" assets are in my wife's name, individually. I feel pretty confident that I can handle this without a fellow attorney getting involved and overcharging me. lol

However, to the extent that the spouse pays their own bills, you can offset the expenses on Line 17 (Marital Adjustments).

I posted my original message before I fully understood the marital adjustment, and now that I do, it looks like I'll be just fine. My wife has several hundreds of dollars worth of unsecured debt payments every month (e.g. Credit cards, student loans, etc.) on her individual accounts. It looks like with that, and the "old car" expense, I'll be nearly $1k under the presumption of abuse and should be able to file chapter 7, even if the trustee objects to some of the expenses.

[justbroke]

But I am an attorney! lol (I just don't regularly practice bankruptcy... Took the class in law school, though!).

Umm... ummm... I object!

I'm glad that you figured out the marital adjustments on Line 17. As you are probably finding out, these adjustments can be very helpful when offsetting income from a working spouse! I really wish you best of luck on your pro se bankruptcy.

Should you have other questions, we will welcome you with open arms over in the Pro Se section of this forum!