Will you look over my expenses and give help

[Fallonedward]

Hi Everyone:

I will be filing on Nov. 4th, so less then 30 days for me...I just want to make sure I've got everything going right. We had to wait 6 months for severance to drop off. With just my salary I am below the median for a family of 5 in my state.

We are hoping to use the argument that hubby's UI is a SS benefit and thus not counted to pass the means.

Please look over my expenses and any and all help appreciated.

Family of Five

House 1433
RE Taxes 339
Car Payment 375
Old or High Mileage Car Allowance 200
Electricity & Heating Fuel 300
401 K Contribution (monthly) 332.62
Medical Coverage (dental, vision & medical) 207.12
Medical FSA Contribution 58.32
Company Life Insurance Contribution 24.02
Taxes - Medicare 76.46
Taxes - Federal 159.36
Taxes - State 214.90
Taxes - Social Security 326.90
B of A Home Equity Payment 360
Water & Sewer 70
Garbage 16
Telephone 48
Home Maintenance 90
Housekeeping Supplies 125
Personal Care Products & Services** 115
Cell Service 195
Food 804 (includes extra 5%)
Cable/Internet 85
Apparel & Services 310
Medical & Dental Expenses 300 (type 1 diabetic child
Education Expenses (school supplies, fees) 125
Transporation - Operating Costs 588 (2 cars)
License Plate / DL Renewal - Jan & July ($280 yr) 23
AAA Yearly Dues 14
Recreation, GS, Newspapers, & Misc. 90
Birthday's and Christmas 40
Homeowners Insurance - 137
HOA Dues * 10
Car Insurance 309
Grand Total: $7,900.70



Gross Pay 5546.98
Unemployment 1540
Total Income: 7086.98
$7,900.70
Disposable Monies -813.72

[2manybills]

I'm a little confused because you say "current take home" but you include withholding taxes in your expenses. So what is your net pay? Also, you can also include anticipated tax on UI in you expenses.

[Fallonedward]

It should say Gross Pay, that is why I included the taxes and such...thanks

[rjmwx81]

Is the 401k contribution mandatory or optional? If it's optional it might raise a red flag....but then again you have so much negative DMI it might not matter.

[Fallonedward]

It is optional, but my company has no pension.

Is the 401k contribution mandatory or optional? If it's optional it might raise a red flag....but then again you have so much negative DMI it might not matter.

[rjmwx81]

If your DMI wasn't so far in the negative it might draw attention then. However, even if the trustee disallowed that expense you've still got a negative DMI so you should be pretty safe anyway. In general, though, optional contributions would, I think, be disallowed. Otherwise everyone would just set their monthly optional retirement savings to show a zero or negative DMI.

[tcreegan]

Hi Fallonedward,

Here are some 'possibles' to check out and be ready for:

The 401K might not be allowed, 9th Circuit ruled it is not a 'necessary' expense in 2008 Egjebjerg v. Anderson
This probably varies by Circuit/Court/Trustee, something to check up on local practice
(and watch out, the rules are different between Ch 7 and Ch 13 where 401K payments are specificaly allowed)

Not all districts allow the $200 'old car' allowance. (Supreme Court deciding this as we speak) Something else to check up on local practices

You might get some quibbling about the cell phone bill, but argue it is necessary for the safety of the kids.

I didn't see anything else problematic....

Hope the filing goes well for you!

Tom in Colo

[Fallonedward]

Tom, thanks for the help...

so if I take out these two items below, it will make my dmi around -290 (or so). I think I should still be ok, if they try and put me in a 13, the trustee will have to add in the $650 payback of my 401K loan and 2nd mortgage payment. Those numbers put me about a thousand negative.


Old or High Mileage Car Allowance 200
401 K Contribution (monthly) 332.62

Hi Fallonedward,

Here are some 'possibles' to check out and be ready for:

The 401K might not be allowed, 9th Circuit ruled it is not a 'necessary' expense in 2008 Egjebjerg v. Anderson
This probably varies by Circuit/Court/Trustee, something to check up on local practice
(and watch out, the rules are different between Ch 7 and Ch 13 where 401K payments are specificaly allowed)

Not all districts allow the $200 'old car' allowance. (Supreme Court deciding this as we speak) Something else to check up on local practices

You might get some quibbling about the cell phone bill, but argue it is necessary for the safety of the kids.

I didn't see anything else problematic....

Hope the filing goes well for you!

Tom in Colo

[Fallonedward]

Are there any expenses that anyone thinks I'm forgetting?

[2manybills]

See the notes next to all of your expenses: If there is not a comment, that expense is not a problem.

House 1433
RE Taxes 339
Car Payment 375
Old or High Mileage Car Allowance 200 this is not part of Schedule J only the means test
401 K Contribution (monthly) 332.62 This will be considered a voluntary expense, and most likely not allowed by TT
Medical Coverage (dental, vision & medical) 207.12
Medical FSA Contribution 58.32
Company Life Insurance Contribution 24.02
Taxes - Medicare 76.46
Taxes - Federal 159.36
Taxes - State 214.90
Taxes - Social Security 326.90
B of A Home Equity Payment 360
Water & Sewer 70
Garbage 16
Telephone 48
Home Maintenance 90
Housekeeping Supplies 125
Personal Care Products & Services** 115
Cell Service 195
Food 804 (includes extra 5%)
Cable/Internet 85
Apparel & Services 310 What do you mean by "Apparel & Services"
Medical & Dental Expenses 300 (type 1 diabetic child
Education Expenses (school supplies, fees) 125
Transporation - Operating Costs 588 (2 cars) I'm sure you mean like gas for your vehicle and maintenance, correct?
License Plate / DL Renewal - Jan & July ($280 yr) 23
AAA Yearly Dues 14
Recreation, GS, Newspapers, & Misc. 90 I don't think I would include $90 for Recreation
Birthday's and Christmas 40 I woudn't include birthday's and Christmas in your Schedule "J".

Homeowners Insurance - 137
HOA Dues * 10
Car Insurance 309
Grand Total: $7,900.70



Gross Pay 5546.98
Unemployment 1540
Total Income: 7086.98
$7,900.70
Disposable Monies -813.72

Even at tht it totals: $7236.70 excluding the ones that I noted, with a total gross income of $7086.70 (inc. UI), you still have a -$149.72 DMI, which is a little more where it should be. You don't want to have two big of a negative DMI showing on your Schedule J either.

[Fallonedward]

Thanks 2many, I was using the IRS guidelines listed below, so the names would be the same.

IRS Allowables

Collection Financial Standards for Food, Clothing and Other Items

Expense One Person Two Persons Three Persons Four Persons Five Persons 5%
Food* $293 $537 $626 $752 $829
Housekeeping supplies $28 $66 $61 $74 $126
Apparel & services $86 $162 $209 $244 $321
Personal care products & services**** $32 $55 $59 $66 $118
Miscellaneous $87 $165 $197 $235 $287
Mortgage $1,022 $1,200 $1,265 $1,433 $1,433
Transporation - Operating Costs n/a n/a n/a n/a $588
Transporation - Ownership Costs n/a n/a n/a n/a $496
Health Care Expenses $60 $120 $180 $240 $300 60
Total $1,608 $2,305 $2,597 $3,044 $4,500 $3,349 1633
588
More than four persons Additional Amount Per Person 375
For each additional person, add to four-person total allowance: $262.00 262/5 300
2956
Expense One Person Two Persons Three Persons Four Persons
Food & Clothing (Apparel & Services)* $379 $699 $835 $996
5% of Food & Clothing $19 $35 $42 $50

More than four persons Additional Amount Per Person
Food & Clothing (Apparel & Services)* $190
5% of Food & Clothing $10

Collection Financial Standards for Health Care Expenses


Out of Pocket Costs
Under 65 $60
65 and Older $144


Local Housing and Utilities Standards*
1 Person 2 People 3 People 4 People 5 People
County FIPS Code Non-Mortgage Mortgage Rent Non-Mortgage Mortgage Rent Non-Mortgage Mortgage Rent Non-Mortgage Non-Mortgage Mortgage Rent
Oakland County 26125 $435 $1,022 $511 $1,200 $538 $1,265 $600 $610 $1,433


IRS LOCAL TRANSPORTATION* EXPENSE STANDARDS
Midwest Census Region

Operating Costs
Region One Car Two Cars
Detroit $294 $588

[2manybills]

Schedule J is different than the means test. On the means test you will put the IRS Allowable expenses, but on Schedule J you will have actual expenses. But $800 on food for 5 people, totally a reasonable expense. Geez, we are 2 and I never get out for under $150 or so. It's easy to do at the market and stuff.

Are you planning on filing pro se, or have you hired an attorney?

[Fallonedward]

Thanks for the help, we are using an attorney

Schedule J is different than the means test. On the means test you will put the IRS Allowable expenses, but on Schedule J you will have actual expenses. But $800 on food for 5 people, totally a reasonable expense. Geez, we are 2 and I never get out for under $150 or so. It's easy to do at the market and stuff.

Are you planning on filing pro se, or have you hired an attorney?

[tcreegan]

Hi again Fallonedward,

You seem good to go....

You brought up a point I have seen in a couple cases where the court ruled against a Ch 7 dismissal for +DMI b/c under the different rules for Ch 13 there would be no $$ to fund the plan.

I think you are ahead of the game, roll on...

Tom in Colo

[Pandora]

Fallen..

You're allowed recreation and b-day/christmas expenses in most cases. We are a family of 3 and we were allowed $60 a month for recreation and $50 monthly for bday/christmas.

I think your 401K might be questioned given its over $300, but again - in most cases 401K contributions are allowed. I think my husband does $100 a payperiod as well as we must take out an additional $100 to pay extra towards taxes due to SSD. Everything was allowed.