HELP!! Trustee says money owed and paperwork missing AFTER the discharge?

[bummedout]

Am in need of advice. I represent myself in my BK. Trustee asked for bank statement and biz returns at 341. Trustee also made a visit to my home on the same day to look at personal property, as I did not do a good enough job of detailing it. Sent requested paperwork via email and never heard anything back from Trustee. Got mailed letter saying overdue for going to 2nd creditor counseling class so went and did that. Discharge papers dated late August. Trustee sends letter that I got yesterday saying personal property is $3,000 over limit, and I need to pay it back, as well as submit "missing" docs. Here are my State "exemptions"

Homestead $30,000
Goods, chattels, merchandise, money or other personal property $4,000
Additional personal property or cash, Head of household = $6,000, Single person = $4,000
$4,000
Miscellaneous books and musical instruments $200
Farm equipment $1,250
Domestic animals limited in numbers, and other tools of trades limited in value

I am upside down in my house......trustee says personal property at $13k (I do have some nice furniture, but own no vehicles etc. outright) and had about $5,000 on hand at filing....this shows on the "missing" bank statements as being pulled out of account days before filing (another story) but did not have this "disclosed" properly. I have learned SO much from this site, unfortunately it was all AFTER the fact!

Please please please give me some good advice folks.....should I hire an attorney? Do I need one? Can a trustee do that?

Thanks so much for any advice!!

[tobee43]

you may have gotten your bk discharged...however the order of a no asset distribution was ever rec'd from the trustee.

they (the trustee) may have turned your "no" asset case into an asset case.

there are two important documents one must receive to be clear...

of course one is the discharge...and to me personally, and more importantly is the order of no asset distribution by the trustee...releasing themselves from the case.

at this point...i would call the clerks office to get the actual status of your case...then make a determination on whether this there is a simple solution or if you need to get an atty.

personally...once again, only my opinion...and you know what they say about those...i am a true believe in the adage.....
"He who has himself for an attorney has a fool for a client" ???? i'd rather pay someone that we caught with my pants down...however many are extremely successful filing pro se...and my hats are off to them.

[JSchrader]

The Trustee can't make you pay cash (unless it is property of the estate). He or she can only take your property. You may need to amend your exemptions. If you have to make a choice, protect liquid assets (such as cash) first. You should consider hiring an attorney to help you with that.

[tcreegan]

Hi bummedout, the math doesn't seem to add up here......

Trustee sends letter that I got yesterday saying personal property is $3,000 over limit
trustee says personal property at $13k (I do have some nice furniture, but own no vehicles etc. outright) and had about $5,000 on hand at filing

Does your state lump vehicles in with personal property or are they a separate exemption?

Do you know about PACER? You can look up anything filed in your case, I think the key question now is going from no-asset to asset case.

Good luck with this,

Tom in Colo

[lunasgal]

Isn't just me, or does it seem that trustee's seem to pick up pro-se filers more? Aren't must Trustee's actually lawyers? It almost seems like they are penalizing people filing on their own more based on what I have read here... I was thinking of filing on my own as I bought many Chap 7 books, but it was the best $1200 I have ever spent.. Peace of mind for me.

It seems like the cash on hand though might have been a red flag? Good Luck Bummed out! At least its only 3k if they end up winning, could be a lot worse

[justbroke]

Isn't just me, or does it seem that trustee's seem to pick up pro-se filers more? Aren't must Trustee's actually lawyers?

Most Trustees are attorneys, but that's not a requirement for the job, but makes it easier to perform. As for picking on pro-se filers... pro se filers pick on themselves.

When you have assets, whether it's furniture or a large sum of money you have in the bank or withdrew within days or weeks of filing, you have issues and shouldn't be filing pro se at all costs. I can see quite quickly, from the math, that the debtor only has $10K in exemptions but an audit revealed that the debtor had $13K in assets (which may have included the $5K that mysteriously disappeared days before filing). That's the Trustee's job. To find assets, whether it's a pro se debtor or seasoned attorney.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Having wrote that, there is not much this person can do unless they want to challenge the valuation of the property, but by the poster's own pen, the OP indicates that the furniture was "nice".

While I usually have answers, there are none without a very detailed review of your assets, figuring out just what you did with $5K within days of filing, and exactly which exemptions you used.

I will let everyone know this. The Trustees in Florida are WELL known for sending out an appraiser to your home. They do this in the MAJORITY of cases! The only time that they don't... is when your paperwork is not only impeccable, but shows an obvious level of detail in disclosing your assets, and not just reaching the "magic" $1K number, for example, in Florida. I was not audited. Few others can claim the same. It's all in the paperwork.

[tobee43]

Isn't just me, or does it seem that trustee's seem to pick up pro-se filers more? Aren't must Trustee's actually lawyers? It almost seems like they are penalizing people filing on their own more based on what I have read here... I was thinking of filing on my own as I bought many Chap 7 books, but it was the best $1200 I have ever spent.. Peace of mind for me.

It seems like the cash on hand though might have been a red flag? Good Luck Bummed out! At least its only 3k if they end up winning, could be a lot worse

justbroke is a perfect example of someone able to handle their legal matters in an effective "correct" way. more than likely even if jb had some complications jb would be able to slam the court right back.....

however.......many and most are not quite that astute when it comes to understanding the laws.

personally, this is the FIRST i...me...has EVER heard of a trustee going to one's HOUSE....now, i'm certain there may be others in this forum that have heard of that. i have not. that alone, had i been given advance warning would have STOPPED....get a postponement and hired an atty.

wow... could not believe when jb says that in florida it's not unusual for the trustee to send someone....lucky we were in someone elses home!! (we left everything in the house we surrendered because we could not afford to move it). but wow...that is very scary to me.

i find it difficult to understand that a trustee was able to look at your items and determine their value without have a "expert" in that field give either by testimony or a written report on it's value.

i would challenge it.

justbroke: I will let everyone know this. The Trustees in Florida are WELL known for sending out an appraiser to your home. They do this in the MAJORITY of cases! The only time that they don't... is when your paperwork is not only impeccable, but shows an obvious level of detail in disclosing your assets, and not just reaching the "magic" $1K number, for example, in Florida. I was not audited. Few others can claim the same. It's all in the paperwork.

i if i would have read what you wrote jb most likely would have had a nervous breakdown!! LOL!!!!!guess is was good i was so OCD about my paperwork...i left no stone unturned even WITH an atty!

[justbroke]

The Trustees in Florida send a third party that specialize in Estate Sales. It's not the Trustee themselves. You can always challenge the valuation, but you will need to have an "expert" witness to testify at any hearing. Whether that is worth the cost should be evaluated. In any case, the missing $5K is the kicker, not the furniture.

[tobee43]

The Trustees in Florida send a third party that specialize in Estate Sales. It's not the Trustee themselves. You can always challenge the valuation, but you will need to have an "expert" witness to testify at any hearing. Whether that is worth the cost should be evaluated. In any case, the missing $5K is the kicker, not the furniture.

well..that's a bit "clearer" and more understandable.

and correct...i would have hired by own person or appraiser for my items...however, as you state i also do think it's the 5k that is the issue here.

[tcreegan]

Hi all,

Hey lunasgal, I think pro-se filers are a love 'em or hate 'em group. In our district the court clerk staff said pro-se paperwork is either A or F grade.

With the numbers not adding up in bummedout's post, I can see where they might be in the latter group and need a lawyer.

You have to be kinda A.R. to file pro-se,

Tom in Colo

[tobee43]

Hi all,

Hey lunasgal, I think pro-se filers are a love 'em or hate 'em group. In our district the court clerk staff said pro-se paperwork is either A or F grade.

With the numbers not adding up in bummedout's post, I can see where they might be in the latter group and need a lawyer.

You have to be kinda A.R. to file pro-se,

Tom in Colo

A.R. as is Absolutely Ridiculously Insane
or
A.R. Astute and Right
or
A.R. Anyone's Ridicule???

i guess i'm begin in the bk lingo.....LOL!

[tcreegan]

toobee43....A.R. as in the vulgar way to say O.C.D.

[tobee43]

got tom....thanks...so AR-OCD....LOL!!