Not trusting any Lawyer

[dukedog]

If I try to dump the car payment and the house, My DMI will be to the moon!!

Right now my DMI on means test is 250. But, I have not put daycare on there. Can I? I took the total weeks that they are in care, added up the yearly cost and devided by 12. Am I able to do that?

Nevermind, Im stupid!!

I did.

So does this mean that $250 would be my chapter 13 payment? I was told I would have to pay at least 75% back.

If I gave up the truck, I would have additional $558 to pay in my DMI. $808 payment plan?

[ccsjoe]

Technically your should do it for the last 6 months, not 12 months, but the bottom line is yes, you can and should do that.

[dukedog]

too am in Georgia (Northern District/Metro Atlanta) specifically

GMAN, let me know when you find a good lawyer. Im in the same district!

[tobee43]

duke...hey dog...of course count day care...wow...you want to be able to leave the kids on the sidewalk or in safe place??

[gman]

If I try to dump the car payment and the house, My DMI will be to the moon!!

Right now my DMI on means test is 250. But, I have not put daycare on there. Can I? I took the total weeks that they are in care, added up the yearly cost and devided by 12. Am I able to do that?

Nevermind, Im stupid!!

I did.

So does this mean that $250 would be my chapter 13 payment?

No. It simply means that you fail the Means Test so if you filed for a Chapter 7 - the Court would "presume" you are abusing the system. In a crazy way - you can still file for Chapter 7 as long as you have a "special circumstance" or a "totality of circumstances" as defined by the BK code.

You can read an article about that route here:

http://www.nationalbankruptcyforum.com/bankruptcy-myths/does-failure-to-pass-the-means-test-automatically-cut-off-chapter-7-eligibility/

Worst case, you file for a Chapter 7 and end up having to go the Chapter 13 route if the case does not go your way.

I was told I would have to pay at least 75% back.

Simply untrue. There are actual debtors here on this board who are in a Chapter 13 who are paying less than 10% to their unsecured creditors. I seem to recall seeing one person claim they are in a 13 and paying 0% to unsecured creditors. That is possible as one might have secured and/or priority (tax usually) debts that come into play.

If I gave up the truck, I would have additional $558 to pay in my DMI. $808 payment plan?

No. It's not that simple. The Means Test and Schedule J are completely different creatures...and Schedule J ultimately decides what debtors pay in a Chapter 13 case.

In a Chapter 13 - how much you pay is dependent on your PROJECTED monthly income after expenses. This number is rarely the same as the amount on the Means Test for a slew of reasons.

Supreme Court case law (Lanning case - 2010) has decided that future income is only what you are making today and are reasonably expected to make in the future. This means recent one-time bonuses are not included in PROJECTED income.

On the flip side - expenses will often be different than the Means Test because unlike the Means Test - there are no statutory limits. Chapter 13 expenses are more of an art form. Your best bet is to back up every expense with receipts. Ex: I'd pull in 12 months of utilities (to show the spike you'd expect in the Winter months) and divide by 12.

The Trustee can object to anything (including your truck) as being too much of a luxury. As a rule of thumb - if your expenses are well beyond the caps on the Means Test - you better have (a) receipts and (b) a good argument why it is necessary.

Your final payment in a 13 is really a negotiation between your side, the Trustee and (ultimately) the judge.

In my personal opinion, a 13 is only good if one has a lot of assets to protect....and I mean a lot.

Otherwise - you are in virtual debtors prison for 5 years with no parole. If you screw up and miss your 55th payment out of 60 - you could be thrown back into a Chap 7 and would have p*ss*d away 55 payments. You have little wiggle room for things like rising prices, unexpected layoffs, unexpected medical bills, etc. You cannot even pay it off early. If you get a big raise/bonus or win the lottery - the Trustee can come knocking and say - thanks - I'll take that - and it does not "speed up" your payoff by a single day. Some on this board may feel different - but in my world unless you need to protect a ton of assets - it as a lose/lose for the debtor.

[gman]

dukedog.....

BIG QUESTIONS:

How much equity would you have (realistically) in your home after:

A - PAYING OFF THE FIRST MORTGAGE?

B - PAYING OFF A FIRST AND SECOND MORTGAGE? (Assuming you have a 2nd on the home)

The reason this is important here in Georgia is because the you can only "protect" $10k of equity in your home given Georgia bankruptcy law. Anything more than that - and the Trustee could FORCE YOU TO SELL YOUR HOME TO PAY OTHER CREDITORS.

Realize your answer on this board does not need to be 'rosy' - and the more you can share about the reality of the equity - the more we can help.

A Trustee is going to be looking at the value anyway. In Northern Georgia I sat through 35 creditor meetings (341 hearings) with debtors (to educate myself). Almost 100% of the questions from Trustees to debtors were about assets (and home equity is an asset.) The Trustees are looking for any dime they can grab - and a personal home is target #1 if it has equity.

If you follow where I am going - this will drive the reality of convincing a judge that you can keep the housing expense on your Schedule J or not.

[backtoschool]

What am I missing? If I take out my payroll deductions and Card payments I am sunk.

Mortgage 1881
Electricity 230
Water 32
Telephone 300
Garbage 30
Pest Control 28
Home upkeep 100
Clothing 100
Food 500
med &dent 240
transportation 420
recreation 200
Charitable cont 400
Life ins 114
auto ins 150
Childrens school & church activities 100
Truck Payment 598

Your telephone is way too high at $300. Your truck payment is over the irs standards which come to about $450 a car or so. You will have to have a long, documented history of contributing $400 month in charitable contributions, especially if you cannot pay your creditors. US Trustees, look very closely at tithing and you will have to prove that you have been tithing at that level for a long time prior to filing bk. $200 for recreation is way too high when you are filing chapter 7.

So, I see about $800+ of expenses that the US trustee is going to question.

[wsy]

GMAN is correct and I agree with him regarding filing a chapter 7 vs 13. Planning is the hardest of it all. Too bad I didn't have this forum when I was going through mine.
Everyone has given you great advice on this forum. Keep looking for an attorney that can help you and advice you of which direction to go, usually when they know a lot about the trustees in their district is helpful.
Get a good attorney but educate yourself as well, two brains are better than one.