I think I'm going to scream!!!

[geye]

So, I just received our draft schedules I and J, and the numbers are all messed up. They calculated "gross" after 401k, health savings, and insurance were deducted, and then deducted these amounts from it. I tried to explain this to the paralegal, and she insisted I didn't know what I was talking about, and transferred me to the attorney to set me straight. Luckily he understood the issue.

The paralegal also took it upon herself to recalculate our taxes, health savings and health insurance based on 26 pay periods per year instead of 24. The problem? I calculated them based on 24 pay periods because my husband is paid twice monthly, not bi-weekly. So all those numbers are wrong.

She had life insurance, water/sewer, and satellite wrong. She gave me $50 for clothing. That's less than $8.50 per person per month. I asked the attorney, and he said he'd put what we actually spent but we might have to explain it. Is he serious? Did he even listen to himself? If I were single, would he put down $8.50 as my clothing allowance? Then in the same breath he says we don't spend enough money on stuff Uh, I said I spend $240/month. Shoot, my Kohl's charge alone had $5000 run through it last year . $240 is with me scouring sale racks and clearance bins.

AND, (and this goes against everything I've read....) income for schedule I is being calculated off the 6-month look-back average. They are dividing that by 6. OK, that's great, but there's OT in that average that hasn't existed in 5 months and may never exist again. So if I were in a 13 based on that extra income I don't really have, how would I make my payments with theoretical money that used to exist but doesn't anymore?

OK, vent over.

[geye]

HOW on earth am I supposed to "prove" to a trustee that I'm spending 500/month MORE than I have income every month? Obviously that's not even possible. My look-back and my current are over $500 a month difference. I don't get to spend that 500 every month just because it used to be there.

[wipetheslate]

That's how the lookback works. It's meant to discourage folks from filing over a temporary setback. I'm in the same boat that my monthly average income when I file is going to be higher than my actual current income. You can wait another month or two and let the OT fall off.

You should look at the IRS national and local tandards for clothing, etc.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104627,00.html

[tay666]

AND, (and this goes against everything I've read....) income for schedule I is being calculated off the 6-month look-back average. They are dividing that by 6. OK, that's great, but there's OT in that average that hasn't existed in 5 months and may never exist again. So if I were in a 13 based on that extra income I don't really have, how would I make my payments with theoretical money that used to exist but doesn't anymore?

OK, vent over.

Don't know what you have been reading.
But everything I have read always talks about the 6 month look-back being the basis for your income calculation.
That is why some people have to wait 6 months to file. So that higher paying period falls off the look back.

Now, as to your expenses. Are they all in line with allowances?
From what I understand, even if you don't actually spend that much on some things, you can still claim the max, or close to it. Based on the federal guidelines for your area.
I'm not really well versed on that part, as I didn't have to worry about it with my filing.
Our income was so low, we had no trouble eating up all 'disposable' income.

[olivies]

AND, (and this goes against everything I've read....) income for schedule I is being calculated off the 6-month look-back average. They are dividing that by 6. OK, that's great, but there's OT in that average that hasn't existed in 5 months and may never exist again. So if I were in a 13 based on that extra income I don't really have, how would I make my payments with theoretical money that used to exist but doesn't anymore?

OK, vent over.

That's correct. But if it hasn't existed in almost 5 months, perhaps you can hold off filing a little longer so that the overtime is beyond the 6month look back. Sounds like you're close to that.

[nc73]

Get another lawyer or insist they use your figures. Simple as that. 5k at Kohls? No wonder.

[LadyInTheRed]

Ask your attorney about the Lanning opinion. http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-998.pdf. It's a Chap 13 case about the definition of "projected disposable income."

[tcreegan]

Hi all, Hi geye, still wrangling with your lawyer I see......and we are worried about Schedules I & J right? Just remember this is a different animal than the means test.

The means test is tied to a strict six month look back, federal rule. You can use IRS guideline amounts for your area to fill in expense questions, trying to get your income down to state median or below.

I & J should show what life is going to be like after the BK is over. Here you have much greater latitude over the figures. You can avg in all of last year, or just use the current month and projected income for the next few months. When you put in expenses, get as close to actual amounts as you can. Anything looks high (or low) might get questioned so save documents/records. (for us mountainous folks, winter is creeping up on us.....up those house heating costs....

Pain in the posterior I know, but you will through it ....

Tom in Colo

[geye]

Get another lawyer or insist they use your figures. Simple as that. 5k at Kohls? No wonder.

Wow, judge much? The national average for one person is $1032 for a year. There are six of us. High-yes. Ridiculous-no. What is ridiculous is that before this process I had no idea how much we spent on clothing. Now I know.

-----------------------------

National standards for clothing for a family of four is $244, and I'm now averaging $240 for a family of six. Cash is much harder to part with, and I'm just that much more willing to dig in the clearance racks for bargains.

I have asked the attorney to put overtime on the overtime line and salary on the salary line. If he has to count it, at least it can go on the correct line. I would think if we really did run into issues we could refile in a month and the problem would be gone? BUT it seems to me a totality of circumstances review would show that the money really isn't there, anyway.

After accounting for daycare costs ($60) and school supplies ($30), and beefing up categories that were low or altogether missing, we have a DMI of around $55.

The attorney doesn't seem to think he'll have any issues because we're under median by a LOT. We're not counting any 401k contributions or student loans. No charity costs. We only have $50 for recreation/newspapers/etc.

We are reviewing the final draft today and should sign the paperwork tomorrow. I hope there aren't any more surprises.

[tay666]

Good.
Sounds like you have a firm grasp on things, and finally have the correct numbers on your paperwork.
Will keep my fingers crossed for you.

[tcreegan]

Hi again geye, just a thought: most folks don't do the 'multiply by 6' in their head so they look at the numbers and go "wow thats high" I would mention the "there are 6 of us" early and often. I grew up with 3 brothers and it still amazes me the quantity of food we went through; 10 gallons of milk and a pound of butter a week, 99 whole chickens, a half a steer, half a hog a year, all the produce off an acre, thank goodness we lived on a farm!

Tom in Colo

[drowning123]

LOL@ Tom!

[geye]

Everything is finally straightened out and we've signed all the paperwork. We ended up with a DMI around $40. I was told to wait to sign an agreement for my daughter's orthodontist treatment or I may have trouble re-affirming my van (which we most certainly want to do-we have several thousand in equity in it, and is through a credit union which will require it). He doesn't expect any of our expenses to be questioned or need to be proved, and the only additional paperwork needed for the meeting may be pay stubs for this month (one trustee requires them; the others don't).

Actual filing will be tonight or tomorrow morning, and we'll know the date of the 341 by Tuesday.

[ironman60]

geye, what district are you in?

[geye]

geye, what district are you in?

I honestly have no idea.