Strange Attorney Actions

[tobee43]

usually, unless you have an extremely complex bk...the trustee does not ask you those type of questions....


in as much as your house value...i would simply call a realtor or go on zillow and get some comps in your area....shoot...our house is down now over 350k via zillow....

we were never asked if we rec'd anymore assets since filing....because we filed on THAT day...not the day of our 341...i'm not saying it's impossible that that question is asked...it's just not very likely.

we were asked about employment....and some property we transferred...end of story....every question the trustee had took place prior to our 341 directly by email....there were some clarifications they asked about and we promptly submitted the responses...but that was all before the actual 341...i don't know how it works in your area, but that was how it worked here.

[ladycee]

Hi Tobee,

Thanks for the quick response.

As we have already discussed......Trustees are different .....atty's are different ....Petitioners are different... Districts are different

Atty gave me TWO checklist of questions my Trustee will be asking:

One is a standard list that all Trustees usually ask

the other one is a list which my Trustee personally likes to ask:

#7: Have you come across any assets you forgot to list?...........my atty wrote in NO

#8: Counsel:

a. Do you anticipate any amendments: .......atty wrote in "made em already"

b. Are there any liens to be avoided? atty wrote in NO (but Discover cc has a lawsuit against me)

c. Are there any preferences to be recovered: atty wrote in NO

---------------------------

I was under the impression that amendments can be filed after 341 if mistakes are discovered. So I am surprised that the Trustee is asking for assurance that there will be no more amendments.

But I am really scared that atty's evaluation of my personal belongings does not seem realistic. And if I do not speak up about it at the 341..........I'm screwed.

In addition, I realized that the Amended Schedule C that he filed has the wrong total for Exemptions! After removing the $21,625 exemption he had erroneously filed. Now the house exemption is only $977. making the new total exemptions $7,409.49 NOT $7,338 as my lawyer filed.

Which does leave me about $10,000 wild card to spread around, but why does my Trustee want to be sure there will be no further amendments. Is he saying that if I don't declare amendments will be coming forth at the 341, that I won't be able amend after this meeting?

don't you see? once the clerks do their calculations, IF the #'s don't add up--- a court auditor CAN be ordered. At that time, I can be presumed abuse if I did not properly state my Personal Property, and did not acknowledge there may be more Property than is listed on Schedule B at this 341 Hearing.

He has $7,338, when it should be $7,409.49....the court clerks are sure to spot that miscalculation.

thanks for the input

[ladycee]

ps tobee,

as far as my house value goes.........that's what this whole post was about........my atty filing an old appraisal from 2005 15 days AFTER he had a NEW appraisal from a certified appraiser!........forcing me to use all $21,625 home exemption ....ok?

Thought we went thru this one already....

Don't need zillow...........got a REAL appraisal.

thanks anyway

[justfiveofus]

Home value should be considered what you could quickly sell it for, not what it might sit on the market and get in 6 months or a year... yes you may be able to get more if you did that, however the bank won't do that they'll auction it. I guessed on our home (used zillow and whatnot) and it actually sold at auction for 35K less than what I thought it would. Depends on how hard your area has been hit with the real estate market going down the crapper.

As far as your household goods, don't look at used...think about garage sale prices.... because if they sold all of your stuff that's what they'd do have a big garage sale not sit around hoping they could get the most they could out of it. Hope that helps some.

[tobee43]

Hi Tobee,

Thanks for the quick response.

As we have already discussed......Trustees are different .....atty's are different ....Petitioners are different... Districts are different

Atty gave me TWO checklist of questions my Trustee will be asking:

One is a standard list that all Trustees usually ask

the other one is a list which my Trustee personally likes to ask:

#7: Have you come across any assets you forgot to list?...........my atty wrote in NO

#8: Counsel:

a. Do you anticipate any amendments: .......atty wrote in "made em already"

b. Are there any liens to be avoided? atty wrote in NO (but Discover cc has a lawsuit against me)

c. Are there any preferences to be recovered: atty wrote in NO

---------------------------

I was under the impression that amendments can be filed after 341 if mistakes are discovered. So I am surprised that the Trustee is asking for assurance that there will be no more amendments.

But I am really scared that atty's evaluation of my personal belongings does not seem realistic. And if I do not speak up about it at the 341..........I'm screwed.

In addition, I realized that the Amended Schedule C that he filed has the wrong total for Exemptions! After removing the $21,625 exemption he had erroneously filed. Now the house exemption is only $977. making the new total exemptions $7,409.49 NOT $7,338 as my lawyer filed.

Which does leave me about $10,000 wild card to spread around, but why does my Trustee want to be sure there will be no further amendments. Is he saying that if I don't declare amendments will be coming forth at the 341, that I won't be able amend after this meeting?

don't you see? once the clerks do their calculations, IF the #'s don't add up--- a court auditor CAN be ordered. At that time, I can be presumed abuse if I did not properly state my Personal Property, and did not acknowledge there may be more Property than is listed on Schedule B at this 341 Hearing.

He has $7,338, when it should be $7,409.49....the court clerks are sure to spot that miscalculation.

thanks for the input

lady....you're OCD....just as i was....i wanted it to the EXACT penny.....these things that appear so important to us after what we read and think we know and understand...but here's what i have learned.

the atty we hired apparently has a relationship with the courts and the trustees....after all the firm works with them every single day. and, while our cases seem like they are so complex and misunderstood, they see this stuff every single day. in other words...frankly speaking ...they simply have bigger fish to fry...LOL!!

i drove myself and those around me CRAZY as well as the atty. i insisted on 3 sit downs and i wanted it just so ...that was prior to filing of course.

if the clerk adds up the numbers and they are off...they'll just fix it. i'm not downplaying your concerns...but as long as you can explain and back up what you submit you'll be fine...if they find an "error" you'll have an opportunity to fix it.

you are correct...everyone has a different situation, atty, and trustee...personally, our bk was extremely complex with i can't even tell you how much documents i FORCED into the courts hands to leave NO STONE unturned.

some districts and trustees allow corrects to be made after...actually many after the 341 because many times that's when a question may arise; so of course you will given the appropriate time to respond...whether it is supplying addition documents or a simple yes or no.

the court system i was in was impressively efficent...everything was asked and answered via the trustees office prior to the 341...other than a few general questions, and a few difficult ones at that...we were done..i was prepared and had all the answers. (by the way i was asked something the atty insisted we would not be asked...so always be prepared).

this is no consolation to you, but i'm certain you'll be good to go.

[ladycee]

thanks just fiveofus,

I completely agree with what you said but my lawyer did not agree. He insisted that the value of my old 2005 appraisal was still good. Stated that in the area that I lived, values had not gone up or down but remained stable. Anyone with an ounce of brains knows this is not true. Matter of fact, I went to another atty who said the same .....even where you live...(I don't live in an exclusive neighborhood like my atty was trying to say) The other lawyer went right into his laptop and found 3 homes $20,000 less than the 2005 appraisal. So how come the other lawyer who was paid good $ couldn't do that?

He was actually "disappointed" when my son scrambled to get a new bona fide appraisal for me, after I refused this atty's generous offer to have his (and his Trustee's) auctioneer do it for me. He complained that the appraisal had 9 pages of academic credentials yada yada. So imagine my dismay when 15 days later ...he filed with the OLD appraisal.

There's a big difference between $21,625 and $977 for homestead exemption and this was why I was insisting on Chapter 13

Is this deliberate? I don't have a clue. There were other errors, and like I said in this new posting, I found yet another miscalculation for total exemptions, small...but an error just the same.....so I find I need to doublecheck and yes triplecheck everything this atty does "in my name".

If this atty had not been insisting my home still had 2005 value, I would not have been so nervous. Thanks God the new appraisal came in $30,000 less than he was sticking me with. It cannot be disputed by the Trustee OR the atty. This guy (appraiser) teaches other appraisers...

So now, I am so afraid of the Schedules B and C needing Amendment, that I am considering asking this atty to file to extend or postpone the 341 Meeting.. Even tho I am anxious to get it over with.. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

thanks a lot

I am stuck with him, for better or worse....(I want a divorce!)

[ladycee]

so does anyone have an idea what the ramifications would be if I asked to delay or postpone the 341 Meeting until I have the chance to correct any mistakes on Schedules B and C?

And how to go about it?

Thanks a bunch guys

[HHM]

so does anyone have an idea what the ramifications would be if I asked to delay or postpone the 341 Meeting until I have the chance to correct any mistakes on Schedules B and C?

And how to go about it?

Thanks a bunch guys

Well, you really can't delay or postpone your 341, so it is a moot point.

You have the right to amend your petition at anytime, so don't worry about it.

[tcreegan]

Hi all, Hi ladycee,

He has $7,338, when it should be $7,409.49....the court clerks are sure to spot that miscalculation

highly doubtful, court clerks dont run calculations, that is the trustees job. $62 is not going to be worth an admendment, you are OK here

a court auditor CAN be ordered

This would be the USTrustee, they only get involved for over-median income, +DMI, etc What flags a UST examination has been posted, check the stickies or around the forum

The right place to bring up items in question is NOT the 341, if the BK trustee is not happy with your numbers, they are not going to want an involved explanation, they have a lot of cases to plow through. They will continue the 341 and ask for certain things to be clarified, that is when you do any recalculations or admendments.

Remember that the trustee can look at the "totality of circumstances" and that Congress has told BK courts to interpret the rules liberally and in the favor of the debtor. You have made a good effort on your filing and aren't deliberately hiding assets, you will be OK

Hang in there,

Tom in Colo

[ladycee]

Thanks so much HHM and tc

HHM that's a big relief to know that I can amend after the 341. Just was wondering why this particular Trustee wants assurance no more amendments are coming.

So...my concern is not so much the value of my items, as I know that there is $10,000 wild card out there to cover these.

But what concerns me is that my atty never gave me a breakdown of "how" he came up with a total for Household Furniture,etc as $2,965, because as I do each item in my home, the big pieces for me add up to $2,365, and when I add in curio ($550) promised to my grandaughter = $2,915, and I believe my atty stayed within the $550 guidelines, but an auditor might say more for these.

Then, when I look around the house I see, 3 window air conditioners, tv, dvd, vcr, laptop, printer, scanner, power floor washer, cordless drill, Minolta camera, lawn mower, charcoal grill, satellite dishes, boxes etc....

so what concerns me is: If Trustee says to me: Have you found anything else of value? Don't I HAVE to say truthfully YES?

Should I at that point just hand in this list I am working on now? or ask to go over the Schedule B one more time with my atty?

I left a message for atty, and plan on emailing this list to him. I've been printing out prices I find on places like Amazon for Used items. and was going to attach those to this list.

Just don't want to fall into a trap.

I even had to give my PayPal and ebay accts to the atty (it's on the Trustee's questionairre).....says the Trustee will want access to them. Anyone else encounter that?

So I printed out acct summary (zero bal) w/activity to bring to 341-- I have never sold, and only bought very few items. $10 to $30 only things I needed like printer cartridges etc. I put PACER and Credit Counselling on PayPal.

Is this what they call pre 341 jitters?......can't blame me after the disappointment with the appraisal. I think my atty has 35 cases with this Trustee on the same day. I am the first one up so won't get a chance to observe others.

Tom, thanks for the tips and the good wishes.....yes will definitely check out the stickies on flags....thanks.

Kudos,

Chris

[tcreegan]

Hi ladycee,

....take a deep breath....let it out slowly....relax.....

The cure for 341 jitters is easy, go watch a few 341 meetings.
Now you don't have to go as far as gman and watch 38, but a few will help you out tremendously..

The value of the personal property is NOT important, all you need is a rough estimate. No one is going to want a detailed inventory, the trustee just wants the basics and the final #s to compare to exemption values. When they ask 'have you found anything else of value' they are looking for luxury items, bank accts, an inheritance, big ticket items in the upper multi-hundreds range, that sort of stuff.

Think about it, what is the trustee going to do with some of your used household items? It needs to be over the exemption by a large number (upper multi-hundreds or more) for it to be worth their time. Trustees are lawyers, very, very few run second-hand stores.... If asked about finding anything of value you could answer, 'Not really, a few of the household items might be worth more or less but nothing that would push it over the exemption."

Hang in there ladycee, go watch some 341, and relax......take a deep breath....exhale slowly.....

Tom in Colo
If you do drag your list out in the 341, trustee is going to be impressed. The list will be glanced at and unless they see a big ticket or really odd item such as an elephant dung removal tool catches their eye. They will get a chuckle out of the list and it will be the topic when the court staff all go over to the nearst pub to unwind from their day...

It will make a great story when they all go out for a beer at the end of the day.

[tobee43]

Hi ladycee,

....take a deep breath....let it out slowly....relax.....

The cure for 341 jitters is easy, go watch a few 341 meetings.
Now you don't have to go as far as gman and watch 38, but a few will help you out tremendously..

The value of the personal property is NOT important, all you need is a rough estimate. No one is going to want a detailed inventory, the trustee just wants the basics and the final #s to compare to exemption values. When they ask 'have you found anything else of value' they are looking for luxury items, bank accts, an inheritance, big ticket items in the upper multi-hundreds range, that sort of stuff.

Think about it, what is the trustee going to do with some of your used household items? It needs to be over the exemption by a large number (upper multi-hundreds or more) for it to be worth their time. Trustees are lawyers, very, very few run second-hand stores.... If asked about finding anything of value you could answer, 'Not really, a few of the household items might be worth more or less but nothing that would push it over the exemption."

Hang in there ladycee, go watch some 341, and relax......take a deep breath....exhale slowly.....

Tom in Colo
If you do drag your list out in the 341, trustee is going to be impressed. The list will be glanced at and unless they see a big ticket or really odd item such as an elephant dung removal tool catches their eye. They will get a chuckle out of the list and it will be the topic when the court staff all go over to the nearst pub to unwind from their day...

It will make a great story when they all go out for a beer at the end of the day.

well for certain it's always on the those situation that is "easier said than done".

it's hard with the anticipating and the "fear" of the unknown... it's of course, always best to be on the "end" of the day of the 341 side.....with your beer.

[ladycee]

thanks Tom,

Reading your post helps a lot........trying to calm myself down and just hope for the best at 341.

Got 2 more questions tho:

When I went to see another atty he asked me: What will be your answer if Trustee asks why you filed 13?

My reply was: "I was afraid that the 2005 appraisal was too high and I would lose my home under Chap 7"

Atty said: "No that is the WORST answer you could give"

So now the Atty that I have says that I should say: "I needed to wait until I could get a new appraisal".

Also another Question I have is: Total Assets = $12,226 and Total Exemptions = $7,338

Would that still be considered a "NO ASSET" case?

Blessings to all who have been so generous to help me out here. Very grateful,

Will post outcome of 10/6 341 and hope you Tom will do the same,

Chris

[ladycee]

Hi all,

Had 341 today. I decided to control myself and stick to yes and no answers. If anything comes up, I will address it then. Still no clue about Reaffirmations yet. Went really fast and Trustee asked me how I deduced my home was worth $85,000? My atty said appraisal. He asked me that leaves you 0 equity? I replied $977....he asked what was my mtg pmt? I said including tax & ins? He said yes. I replied $709 and he remarked to my atty, doesn't seem likely that she will find a rental that low? and atty agreed.

He wondered how I could have run up $41,000 cc debt, and I said well, there was 2 dog surgeries....he replied that doesn't account for $41,000, and I said no I just mismanaged I guess.

In retrospect I feel I should have said $5,000 of that is pure interest and penalties because when I stopped paying and using cards I only owed $36,000 + I should have pointed out that was a span of 4 yrs....2005 - 2009, but as usual, I don't think fast on my feet.

Now wondering if I should send Trustee a ltr explaining that.......woe is me

Chris

[keepmine]

Were I you, I'd leave it alone. You did fine when you said you'd just mismanaged.
If the trustee wants some further explanation, let him ask for it via your lawyer.
Sometimes, the best course of action is just do nothing and wait.