Take a look at my schedule J and critique

[mommi2many]

Hello,

My husband and I will be filing for chapter 7 pro se. We have 5 children so we are a family of 7. We don't own a home. I am on unemployment. We were under the median. And we live in California.

Rent---$1850
Electricity---$100
Gas (heating)---$73
Water & Sewer---$100
Trash---$23
DSL---$20
Satellite---$100
Cell Phone (5 lines)---$180
Phone (landline)---$46
Home Maintenance---$100
Food---$1000
Clothing---$200
Laundry & Dry Cleaning---$65
Medical & Dental---$400
Transportation---$400
Car Payment 1---$459
Car Payment 2---$426
Auto Insurance---$122
Recreation---$150
Back State Taxes owed---$40

After all of the expenses we have a monthly net of $90. Will this be acceptable?

[Maine]

Do you have any school fees or supply expenses for the kids? Daycare cost? You can include a line for "personal care services and supplies" (haircuts, shampoo ect..)

Reason I ask is 90 is a little high for net, not bad, but closer to zero is better. Also entertainment at 150 seems very low to you and I but the trustee might think it is too high.

Otherwise it looks ok to me.

[ccsjoe]

Any health or dental insurance costs beyond out of pocket medical that you listed?

Is gasoline included in your transportation costs?

Food seems low for a family of 7 in CA, our attorney said trustees in my area reasonably figure food to be approx. 300/person/month.

Agree with Maine on personal care services.

150 for recreation should be ok

[Dee]

What about home maintenance? Even though we rent, we still have to pay for air filters, lightbulbs, carpet cleaning, etc.

And what about life/disability insurance?

[SMinGA]

You're under median so your expenses might not be questioned. But if they are: $180 for cells when you have a home phone... $100 for satellite. $150 for recreation. These are items that might be questioned as being high.

Personal care-hair cuts, soap/shampoo/deoderant/etc. It may not be a huge amount each week but in the course of a month you probably spend $50-75 a month
Household supplies-I use this heading to include cleaning supplies, paper products and such
Vehicle Maintenance/Tag Renewal fees-is this included in transportation?

You show $40 for back state taxes. Have you adjusted withholding to make sure you don't owe in the future? If not, you may need to which will lower your DMI slightly.

[dumpinmydebt]

Rent---$1850
Electricity---$100
Gas (heating)---$73
Water & Sewer---$100
Trash---$23
DSL---$20
Satellite---$100
Cell Phone (5 lines)---$180
Phone (landline)---$46
Home Maintenance---$100
Food---$1000
Clothing---$200
Laundry & Dry Cleaning---$65
Medical & Dental---$400
Transportation---$400
Car Payment 1---$459
Car Payment 2---$426
Auto Insurance---$122
Recreation---$150
Back State Taxes owed---$40

I'd make the net less than $90. Use the personal care supplies. Ideally make that net like $5.

Since you're a family of 5 under the median, I'm not sure how much they will nit pick. My husband and I (family of 2) spend $95 on our cell phones, and we have a home phone ($40) as well. I can justify the need both.

We only have $50 for recreation (but we're only 2 people), they may pick on that, they may not. For 5 people, recreation gets expensive. If you 5 went to the aquarium or zoo by me, you'd spend that in 1 day (with lunch/parking).

I don't see the $100 satellite as an issue, personally. And the rest looks fine.

[mommi2many]

Thanks everyone,

Maine--Yes, the kids are in school and so am I so I'm sure I can put in school expenses. I can also include personal expenses. But the kids are not in daycare because I am unemployed.

ccsjoe--I thought food was low but thought I needed to stay under the radar. I'll fix that. Those are my out of pocket medical and dental costs except we have 2 who need braces so our costs will probably be higher. Also, with a $25 copay for each doctor visit and 2 with asthma, our expenses do get up there. Again, trying to stay under the radar. My husband commutes 100 miles a day 4 days a week so I will definitely have to add in the gas for that.

Dee--I already added $100 for home maintenance. Disability insurance was calculated with the taxes before we got to the net. Sorry, show those figures in my post. We are looking to add life insurance because we don't have any on me and only 50K on my husband. I can add more through his job right now so really thinking of doing that.

SMinGA--I will definitely add in a personal line and household line. That should help a lot. I figured vehicle registration in transportation, but we both have fairly new cars and haven't had much maintenance so not sure how to add that in there. Thanks for the tip to adjust my withholdings. Will do that asap.

[mommi2many]

dumpinmydebt--I will use the personal care line and wiggle around until I get it down to around $5 like you suggest. Thanks for taking a look.

[mommi2many]

Everyone,

At the bottom of Schedule J it asks if there will be any changes. I will be losing unemployment benefits in a couple of months. $379 in child support payments for my son will stop in 2 months because he will be 18. Also, child support for my daughter will be lowered because on 9/23 her dad and I go to to make our visitation schedule legal which gives him more time with her. We are probably looking at $100 to $200 less. Do I list all of this? Will it make a difference to maybe not be scrutinized?

Thanks

[dumpinmydebt]

Everyone,

At the bottom of Schedule J it asks if there will be any changes. I will be losing unemployment benefits in a couple of months. $379 in child support payments for my son will stop in 2 months because he will be 18. Also, child support for my daughter will be lowered because on 9/23 her dad and I go to to make our visitation schedule legal which gives him more time with her. We are probably looking at $100 to $200 less. Do I list all of this? Will it make a difference to maybe not be scrutinized?

Thanks

It won't hurt you to list it. Might as well.

I wouldn't worry too much about being scrutinized. You're under the median, so you won't set off an immediate red flag. Not sure how much you are under the median, but the less you are the better.

My husband and I are $25k under the annual median income. I don't expect them to take a second look at us, at all.

[backtoschool]

Hello,

My husband and I will be filing for chapter 7 pro se. We have 5 children so we are a family of 7. We don't own a home. I am on unemployment. We were under the median. And we live in California.

Rent---$1850
Electricity---$100
Gas (heating)---$73
Water & Sewer---$100
Trash---$23
DSL---$20
Satellite---$100
Cell Phone (5 lines)---$180
Phone (landline)---$46
Home Maintenance---$100
Food---$1000
Clothing---$200
Laundry & Dry Cleaning---$65
Medical & Dental---$400
Transportation---$400
Car Payment 1---$459
Car Payment 2---$426
Auto Insurance---$122
Recreation---$150
Back State Taxes owed---$40

After all of the expenses we have a monthly net of $90. Will this be acceptable?

Here are the problems I see:

$100 for satellite and $150 for recreation are too much for a chapter 7. If the trustee takes those away, you will have enough money to fund a chapter 13.

I am assuming you looked at the irs standards for your area of California. Housing and utility allowances vary quite a bit in California. Here is a link to the irs page to determine the amount allowed by county.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104701,00.html

Since you are below the median, you may squeak by. But I see some room to shave expenses off to get to a chapter 13 if the US trustee is in a bad mood or is on a push to get everyone into a chapter 13. I would find some more health and insurance costs to replace any discretionary costs. I am sure with a large family you have costs you haven't put down.

[mommi2many]

dumpinmydebt--We are 17K under the median.

backtoschool--thanks for the advice. I am looking over my medical and dental expenses again and I'm pretty sure I can rightfully claim more. Also, soon I will be able to add in life insurance, too. Once, I can add those in I should be able to lower satellite and recreation so that I won't have any problems. Hopefully

[SMinGA]

$30 per vehicle, every 3 months for oil changes. Or whatever the going rate in your area is... I would guess @ 100 miles a day commute, your husband's vehicle needs either brake work or tires each year. $50-75/mo on average for veh. maintenance would not be unreasonable. @ $50, that pays your oil changes and leaves another $360 per year. Not hard to spend that on necessary maintenance.

For groceries, etc. - really think about what you need to spend. Some things vary of course by region. I am a family of 5 - $700-750/mo on groceries is abundant for our household. But for another family of 5, it might be barely enough.

On the out of pocket, itemize it for your own benefit. Add up the copays, prescriptions, over the counter stuff, etc. The kids w/ asthma probably see a doctor a few times a year, the ones without at least once each. And 2 dental visits per year each. Perhaps an average of 1-3 prescriptions each year per person in the family. OTC - bandaids, aspirin, cold medicine, etc. It all adds up.

Just picked up a $100k for 10 yrs life insurance policy for myself @ $12.41 a month. Life insurance got dropped last year when USAA dropped us. Need to get a plan for hubby also, but must shop around. Smoker...

Thanks everyone,

Maine--Yes, the kids are in school and so am I so I'm sure I can put in school expenses. I can also include personal expenses. But the kids are not in daycare because I am unemployed.

ccsjoe--I thought food was low but thought I needed to stay under the radar. I'll fix that. Those are my out of pocket medical and dental costs except we have 2 who need braces so our costs will probably be higher. Also, with a $25 copay for each doctor visit and 2 with asthma, our expenses do get up there. Again, trying to stay under the radar. My husband commutes 100 miles a day 4 days a week so I will definitely have to add in the gas for that.

Dee--I already added $100 for home maintenance. Disability insurance was calculated with the taxes before we got to the net. Sorry, show those figures in my post. We are looking to add life insurance because we don't have any on me and only 50K on my husband. I can add more through his job right now so really thinking of doing that.

SMinGA--I will definitely add in a personal line and household line. That should help a lot. I figured vehicle registration in transportation, but we both have fairly new cars and haven't had much maintenance so not sure how to add that in there. Thanks for the tip to adjust my withholdings. Will do that asap.

[tobee43]

Here are the problems I see:

$100 for satellite and $150 for recreation are too much for a chapter 7. If the trustee takes those away, you will have enough money to fund a chapter 13.

I am assuming you looked at the irs standards for your area of California. Housing and utility allowances vary quite a bit in California. Here is a link to the irs page to determine the amount allowed by county.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=104701,00.html

Since you are below the median, you may squeak by. But I see some room to shave expenses off to get to a chapter 13 if the US trustee is in a bad mood or is on a push to get everyone into a chapter 13. I would find some more health and insurance costs to replace any discretionary costs. I am sure with a large family you have costs you haven't put down.

i agree with those expenses being a bit high as well when you first look. yet with 5 children i think it may be explainable and would be acceptable....$30 per child per month??? and that doesn't include you or your husband....i think it's more than fair. i don't think a trustee would except you lock your kids in their rooms and never go out. it cost more than $150 to take them just once a month for an educational outing.

however, on the other hand i think your house maintenance expenses are very low...shoot...what if the furnace goes....or the roof...???

also...food for 7 at 1k may appear high to some...but certainly NOT in ca or fl....i'm been in both as we nj....and i can feed the family for less that half of what it cost us in ca or fl in nj if you can believe that one. try to stay away from the 13 if possible...unless you clearly can see your future for the next 3-5 years will be perfect. otherwise, you may have to refile at the slightest change in your income or expenses...


i think you can move those figures a bit to fit better...really.

[mommi2many]

tobee--thanks for your advice. I've gotten some great advice and I'm sure I can move the numbers around legitimately to keep with a chap 7. We can't afford a 13 because our situation is going to change in the next couple of months. I will run out of unemployment benefits and my child support payments will be lowered. As far as house maintenance--we are renting so I won't be liable for a roof replacement, etc. But, we do have normal upkeep--like carpet cleaning, lawn care, and we are responsible for plumbing if we are at fault and you know how kids are. We already had both sinks clogged thanks to my girls and their hair.