Questions on Schedule J & I

[dumpinmydebt]

Hello! This is dumpinmydebt's wife. He told me there are a lot of smart people on here, so I'm looking for your advice!

We're filing pro se. Or should I say, I'm filing for us. Lol. He's paying.

I'm not having too hard of a time with the paperwork in all honesty. The Nolo Book is a lifesaver (and money saver!) We don't have much so there really isn't much to fill out! Ha ha. A lot of "none" check boxes.

But Schedule J is just making me all kinds of nervous.

From what I understand, and please, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, on Schedule I, I am to list the prorated amount of the tax refund we received as well as the student loan refund money we receive.

So, we received a $4300 tax refund in February. I assume divide that by 12 and we get $358 in monthly income.

The student loan refund checks we have received in the past 6 months total $4400. Divide that by 6 and we get $733 in monthly income.

Gross income is $2287 (13 checks (biweekly)) divided by 6.

Monthly taxes of $250.

Total monthly income = $3128

Below the median, thank goodness, don't need to fill out that stinkin means test.

Now, Schedule J:

I'm just having a hard time getting rid of disposable income.

Line 2 - I know the allowance for utilities is $476. We don't spend this much. Almost wish we did now!
a. Electricity and heating fuel - $250 : If I put more, will they ask for proof?
b. water & sewer - $0
c. Telephone - $120 - does this include cell phones? I put them in, if not where do I put cell phone expenses, line 17? Yes, we need cell phones. I volunteer in a dangerous part of town and our school isn't in the nicest part of town either.
d. Other - I put internet. We are in school and need the internet. We both have some classes online. I put $40.

Lines 4&5 - Am I allowed to max the food allowance? I did. But just want to make sure that's ok.

Line 6. Laundry & dry cleaning? Are they going to ask for proof of expenses? I just put $50. I kinda assumed food, clothing and laundry were lumped under the same allowance, so I have $825 for food, $100 for clothing, and $50 for laundry.

Line 8-We spend $300 in gas a month, IRS standard is only $183!!!! What to do? I have my receipts if they want proof.

Line 9 - What is a reasonable amount for recreation expenses? I put $100. Can I put more without objection?

Line 17 - Other - I put "pet expenses." Or do I need to just have that apart of my food expenses. Will they object to $100 a month in pet expenses? We have 2 dogs & 2 cats.

How much disposable income can I have where they won't presume abuse?

Thanks for your help in advance!!

[Maine]

From what I understand, and please, please, please correct me if I'm wrong, on Schedule I, I am to list the prorated amount of the tax refund we received as well as the student loan refund money we receive. On the means test you need to do this,but on schedule I you only list your income that you expect to receive monthly into the future.

The student loan refund checks we have received in the past 6 months total $4400. Divide that by 6 and we get $733 in monthly income. I can not say if loan counts as income- seems like it would not, but I could be wrong.


Monthly taxes of $250. Use the actual taxes from your current job and get a monthly average.


Line 2 - I know the allowance for utilities is $476. We don't spend this much. Almost wish we did now!
a. Electricity and heating fuel - $250 : If I put more, will they ask for proof? they might ask, they might not..a little risky- I would do it, but can not tell you to.
b. water & sewer - $0 do you rent or have a septic system? If septic what do you have for annual maintenance- divide to get monthly amount
c. Telephone - $120 - does this include cell phones? I put them in, if not where do I put cell phone expenses, line 17? Yes, we need cell phones. I volunteer in a dangerous part of town and our school isn't in the nicest part of town either. yes, include cell here
d. Other - I put internet. We are in school and need the internet. We both have some classes online. I put $40.yes, include internet here. You can also include cable and trash removal here.

Lines 4&5 - Am I allowed to max the food allowance? I did. But just want to make sure that's ok. yes, take the max, that is fine

Line 6. Laundry & dry cleaning? Are they going to ask for proof of expenses? I just put $50. I kinda assumed food, clothing and laundry were lumped under the same allowance, so I have $825 for food, $100 for clothing, and $50 for laundry. works for me, i did the same

Line 8-We spend $300 in gas a month, IRS standard is only $183!!!! What to do? I have my receipts if they want proof. if you use it and can prove it then put it in.

Line 9 - What is a reasonable amount for recreation expenses? I put $100. Can I put more without objection? I have 100 for a family of 6, they might or might not question that amount for 2 people

Line 17 - Other - I put "pet expenses." Or do I need to just have that apart of my food expenses. Will they object to $100 a month in pet expenses? We have 2 dogs & 2 cats. they should not object, can you prove it if they do?

How much disposable income can I have where they won't presume abuse? You MUST to be under $182.50, you should aim for under $50 dmi

Did you include a line for haircuts and personal care supplies? (I put this in "other") Hope this helps a little- I know what it is like to stress over these documents.Good luck!

[tcreegan]

student loan income

Hi dumpinmydebt,

Just wanted to make sure you are only counting the portion of your student loans that are beyond educational expenses. Don't count the amount you used for tuition, school fees, books, pens, paper, etc.

I am not much good on the expenses, I hope some of the more qualified will chime in.....

Tom in Colo

[dumpinmydebt]

The student loan refund checks we have received in the past 6 months total $4400. Divide that by 6 and we get $733 in monthly income. [B]I can not say if loan counts as income- seems like it would not, but I could be wrong.

This is where I have been getting mixed reviews. I've seen some posts on this site that say yes, and a few that don't. I figured it would probably hurt worse to not put it in that if I go ahead an do it.

Use the actual taxes from your current job and get a monthly average.

These are the actual taxes I used for monthly average. Now I do have a question on that. Taxes meaning, federal, state, city and ss? No medicare? Wasn't sure....


b. water & sewer - $0 do you rent or have a septic system? If septic what do you have for annual maintenance- divide to get monthly amount

No. We rent a condo.

d. Other - I put internet. We are in school and need the internet. We both have some classes online. I put $40.yes, include internet here. You can also include cable and trash removal here.

No cable. Maybe I should get cable. lol. Don't tell the husband I said that.

Line 8-We spend $300 in gas a month, IRS standard is only $183!!!! What to do? I have my receipts if they want proof. if you use it and can prove it then put it in.

Most certainly can. Use the debit card and the charges are on our checking account and I keep the receipts. We really need to by a hybrid. lol

Line 17 - Other - I put "pet expenses." Or do I need to just have that apart of my food expenses. Will they object to $100 a month in pet expenses? We have 2 dogs & 2 cats. they should not object, can you prove it if they do?

I can actually prove we spend more, we spend $100 on dog food alone (dogs have allergies). But I figured more would be objectionable.

Did you include a line for haircuts and personal care supplies? (I put this in "other")

I actually didn't. I cut my own hair and his own hair. But I have no problem putting those expenses in. How much did you put in. I'm going to assume maybe $50 for 2?

Hope this helps a little- I know what it is like to stress over these documents.Good luck!

Thank you!!!! I'm glad I can max that food allowance because we really do spend that much. My hubby is a chef and likes to experiment. We also buy organic which gets pricey.

[dumpinmydebt]

Hi dumpinmydebt,

Just wanted to make sure you are only counting the portion of your student loans that are beyond educational expenses. Don't count the amount you used for tuition, school fees, books, pens, paper, etc.

I am not much good on the expenses, I hope some of the more qualified will chime in.....

Tom in Colo

Yes. This is the check they send to us after the tuition and fees are paid.

Although, I do use the cash from them to buy the books and supplies for next quarter. Would it be safe to deduct that amount from what I receive? We spend at least $200 of that money on books and supplies in preparation for the next quarter.

[Maine]

Medicare is an involuntary tax- use it!

condo? did you put in hoa fees? I think you can.

LOL on the cable

I drive a giant suv- I need a hybrid too. But I need a hybrid that seats 6.

I put haircuts at 100 every 6 weeks...which came to about 70 month. Then add in shampoo, toothpaste, hygeine supplies, razors ect...$90 a month (for 6 of us) I would think $50 for cuts and personal care supplies is ok.

[dumpinmydebt]

Medicare is an involuntary tax- use it!

condo? did you put in hoa fees? I think you can.

LOL on the cable

I drive a giant suv- I need a hybrid too. But I need a hybrid that seats 6.

I put haircuts at 100 every 6 weeks...which came to about 70 month. Then add in shampoo, toothpaste, hygeine supplies, razors ect...$90 a month (for 6 of us) I would think $50 for cuts and personal care supplies is ok.

LOL! Will do then, thanks

We don't pay the HOA fees ourselves. We pay our landlord $600, and she pays her mortgage and the HOA fees. We're renting from a lady who can't sell her condo.

Thanks again!

[momofthree]

Don't forget out-of-pocket medical expenses, you're allowed $60/mo per person.

What is a student loan refund check? Any loan proceeds are NOT income, you have to pay them back, they are the opposite of income....

Also, you only list a deduction of $250/mo from your paycheck. Does that cover federal/state taxes, FICA, medicare, medical/dental insurance, life insurance, etc? It just seems incredibly low, especially since you receive a tax refund of $358/mo. Be sure to claim all of those deductions on your schedule I. And if you've recently changed your deductions in order to get less of a tax refund at tax time, then you shouldn't have to add the extra $358 back in as income.

[helpmeout]

Your tax refund does not count as income. I used an attorney for Chapter 7 and it was not listed as income at all. But it was an asset that I had to declare and exempt.

[dumpinmydebt]

Don't forget out-of-pocket medical expenses, you're allowed $60/mo per person.

What is a student loan refund check? Any loan proceeds are NOT income, you have to pay them back, they are the opposite of income....

Also, you only list a deduction of $250/mo from your paycheck. Does that cover federal/state taxes, FICA, medicare, medical/dental insurance, life insurance, etc? It just seems incredibly low, especially since you receive a tax refund of $358/mo. Be sure to claim all of those deductions on your schedule I. And if you've recently changed your deductions in order to get less of a tax refund at tax time, then you shouldn't have to add the extra $358 back in as income.

Did the $120 for our medical expenses.

See the student loan thing I find mixed reviews on. I would think since I have to pay it back it wouldn't be income. But I've seen other people say since I'm getting a check, then it is income. I dunno.

No insurance. It is low because we took out 3 exemptions.

Yes our refund was huge, that was because we didn't have any exemptions last year. We changed them in January this year.

Well shoot, if I don't have to use the student loan money and tax refund money as income, then we'll have no extra money to worry about finding a spot for.

[dumpinmydebt]

Your tax refund does not count as income. I used an attorney for Chapter 7 and it was not listed as income at all. But it was an asset that I had to declare and exempt.

Since it was back in February, it has been spent. Would I just then need to provide my receipts for proof of what I spent it on? Didn't get anything luxury.

[dumpinmydebt]

You guys are awesome. Seriously. Lovin this forum!!

[tcreegan]

educational expenses

Hi dumpinmydebt

Although, I do use the cash from them to buy the books and supplies for next quarter. Would it be safe to deduct that amount from what I receive? We spend at least $200 of that money on books and supplies in preparation for the next quarter.

Yup, anything spent on educational supplies.

Tom in Colo

ps: what really stinks is that student loans disbursements are not considered income by the IRS and you can't discharge the student loan, not even the part you have to include as income in the BK

[tcreegan]

correction on student loan disbursement

Hope you are still around dumpinmydebt,

My source on student loan disbursement past educational expense being income was unqualified. (I thought it was a lawyer, not the case)

backtoschool, much more knowledgeable than I am, says student loans are not income and do not include student loan payments as an expense. I am not sure where this leaves educational expenses (books, paper, etc) BUT...if you put the disbursement in your bank acct as cash, it becomes....cash. $$ the BK trustee can ask for unless you have an exemption for it.

Tom in Colo

[dumpinmydebt]

Hope you are still around dumpinmydebt,

My source on student loan disbursement past educational expense being income was unqualified. (I thought it was a lawyer, not the case)

backtoschool, much more knowledgeable than I am, says student loans are not income and do not include student loan payments as an expense. I am not sure where this leaves educational expenses (books, paper, etc) BUT...if you put the disbursement in your bank acct as cash, it becomes....cash. $$ the BK trustee can ask for unless you have an exemption for it.

Tom in Colo

Thanks for letting me know Tom!

My plan is to not cash the loan disbursement that we will receive after filing until after the 341. I might not even get them until after the 341 anyway. I'm going to try and plan it that way though so I don't have to worry about exemptions. Trying to make this whole bk thing go as smooth as possible.