Contingent and non-contingent interests in estate of a decedent...

[MBTH]

We're still debating hiring an attorney vs. not... we haven't fully decided.

I'm working through the paperwork and Schedule B, line 20 indicates, "Contingent and non-contingent interests in estate of a decedent..."

This is where my question lies here. My father in law died in 2009. He has a very small estate that has not gone to probate yet, there is no administration. The reason for this is because 1) We can't afford an attorney to handle it, and the rules of the court in that state require an attorney for this situation and 2) There are no liquid assets in the estate to help pay for an attorney.

There may be one or two creditors on the estate... but I haven't found out for sure yet. We're still going through the mountains of stuff he left and sending letters for debt verifications. He really left a mess and we can't tell what he paid off, if he paid it off or if the creditors even care anymore. We're informing him that he died, there are no liquid assets and that no estate administration has been filed.

If there are, we suspect that the creditors claims will eat up the entirety (or vast majority) of the estate. That's another reason we haven't filed anything just yet... we'd be paying out of pocket for a probate case that we may or may not see anything from. And since we're broke, too... that doesn't help.

Now... can anyone tell me if this applies to #20 or not? How can we put a value on an estate that may or may not be ours in the future? I know the value of the estate without creditor claims... but we have no legal right to any of it at this point because there has been nothing filed. My husband is the sole beneficiary of the estate - everyone else in the family has already died.

We're in California (Exemption System 2). The estate is in Texas.

[tcreegan]

Hi MBTH,

The way I see it, you have a contingent interest in your fathers estate. It is contingent on settlement of claims against it. To value it properly, you need to find out what claims can/will be filed against it and what would the attorney fees be to administer the estate. (You can't pay an atty, but the atty can get paid out of the estate.) Get a ballpark figure and put it on Sched. B with the value shown as approx. $$ If the numbers are seriously off (thousands vs hundreds) you can amend your filing with the updated numbers.

Good luck with this mess, hopefully it works out easier that it looks like....

Tom in Colo

[MBTH]

Thanks... that what I assumed it meant, too. There is an interest there to be sure, we just don't know how much and when or if we'll see anything from it.

We've talked with 12 different attorneys in that state (TX) and have been unable to find one willing to be paid out of the proceeds of the estate as opposed to paying a retainer up front. All of them have said that the estate is too small (less than $40K) and no guarantee they'll be paid.

One of them suggested that we just wait a bit longer to make sure that none of the creditors will file a claim and then file a small estate affidavit with the court to receive the full amount. That bothered us a bit... because we know that he owed money when he died (at least $22K worth) but we've not received any verifications back yet from those creditors validating the debt. It appears that most of them wrote it off last year and are done with it. I those cases, we're trying to collect letters verifying the status of the account, too.

We have 3 more years before we have to file administration papers. We're hoping to be able to afford it by then so we can be done with this... but we, honestly, need that time to go through all of the boxes of crap he left. He never threw any of his financial papers out... but he never filed them properly, either. We have at least 30 file boxes full! At the rate this is going, I'm going to need 3 more years!

I think the idea of amending paperwork is a decent idea... although, I figure that our Chap 7 would be done and over with by the time we even got to a point where the estate administration would begin.

I think, though... the best we can do is just estimate how much we'd actually see... which isn't much. That amount is well within our exemption limits, so we should be okay.

The more I get in to this... the more I think we need to hire a BK Attorney... but we can't afford that, either, at this point because of other circumstances we're dealing with -- namely, we need to move soon because our landlord's property is going through foreclosure and we don't qualify under the Renter's Protection Bill from last year. Ugh.

We're hoping that by filing for Chap 7 soon, we might be able to extend our stay in the house a bit longer.

We'd considered just giving up and moving in to my Father-in-law's place while we work on his estate. But it's not at all fit to live in... it's a mobile home that was pretty much destroyed during Hurricane Ike in 2008. The place has mold and all kinds of icky stuff... it just needs to be bulldozed. It's simply not an option!

All in all... we're in a tough situation, but I still count my blessings because I know there are others in much worse situations.

[despritfreya]

If you have no clue as to the value of your FIL's estate do not estimate it in Schedule B as such is not a truthful statement. You mark it as "unknown" and then indicate why it is listed as "unknown". The more info you give to the Trustee up front the more likely it will be that the Trustee will abandon the asset. Just understand that the Trustee does not have to abandon the asset, but, if he wants to administer the asset he will have to deal with any claims your FIL has. I had a case that this happened in and the Trustee bit off more than she could chew. She eventually had to walk away from the asset.

[HHM]

Actually, I would say it is non-contingent. The event that gave rise to any share you might have has occurred (the death). Your claim is simply un-liquidated (meaning you don't know the amount, if any).

As despritfreya points out, the value is unknown, however, it is not contingent.

[MBTH]

These are all great points...

We know the technical value of the estate as a whole... just not would it would be to us after the creditor claims. So that part is unknown. We suspect it will be either a small amount (less than $3,000) or nothing at all, depending upon the sales price of the property... and we all know how great property prices are right now. Heh. And we look at the property as land value only since the "improvement" is even listed as "poor" by the county tax office. It's worse than that, if you ask me.

Basically, we don't expect to get anything from it. That's one of the reasons having it administered is a very low priority at this point - since the up front costs of doing so would come out of our pockets...which are already empty. I mean, we can't really afford a BK attorney, so how in the world are we going to afford an estate attorney to handle a case that we likely won't benefit from?

I can't imagine that a trustee would even want to bother with the administration of a small estate like that, in another state. Not given the amount of paperwork we're dealing with... and since the amount of our debts way exceed that, thanks to some hefty medical bills from 10 years ago that, alone, total over $90K... any actual interest we would have wouldn't be worth the effort. Our total debts are pushing $200K, some of it not even dischargeable (student loans!). For me, any work I do on the estate is just out of love.

Input from others really does help me see this better! Thank you all.

I suppose the goal should be to get the trustee to abandon it. If that happens, and we are discharged... and the estate settles later down the road... and there's anything in it for us (if, if, if) ... we'd be free in clear, then right... because we did disclose it?

We have no intentions of hiding it or not mentioning it... on the Statement of Financial Affairs, it would be listed as property we control for another person.

[tcreegan]

all yours

Hi MBTH,

Yup, if the trustee abandons it and the case closes then it is all yours.

I agree, I cannot imagine a trustee going after a small estate in another state with unknown claims against it. Comes under the "more trouble than it is worth" category.

Good luck with your BK,

Tom in Colo