New to Forum**Need some advice

[jmarsh]

So here it is...we filed for Chapter 7 back in November of 2009, had our meeting of creditors in late December...and here we still are. Our trustee is pretty slow and likes to drag her feet. She had us hand over half of an IRA that was transferred before the filing. Rather than litigate, we decided to just settle so as not to incur further costs. The motion to settle has been filed/approved and funds have been paid...Now here is the real DOOZY....
Our house was broken into last week (2 other break-ins on the street)...believe me, NO Fraudulent action going on over here. We couldn't make this stuff up. Anyways...they stole a ton of stuff from our house. Including my whole jewelery box with wedding/engagement rings and various other pieces in it. Here is the sticky pary...When we claimed exemptions we put $4000 down for jewelry becuase we were told to use "pawn shop" values. Which far exceeded the value of the pieces because pawn shops will pay between 10-30%. We went high and went over the 30% and now there is a problem. Our trustee wants to see all paperwork/filings with the insuracne company. Our appraisal for the ring is almost $12000 and I had to list all the jewelry that was stolen. The insurance company is replacing my engagement ring with a new one at a local jeweler and they are quoting him $8000 replacement cost. They are also giving us $3500 for the other jewelry (max on jewelry, I thought it was only $1000). They stole a tv, laptop, and lots of my camera equipment...that should be covered under my household furnishings and we had a separate exemption for the camera equipment...
My attorney thinks that we may have to pay the $3500 + $8000 for the value of the ring they are replacing minus the $4000 exemptions...So now not only was all of our stuff taken from us, we have to come up with an extra $4000 to have all of our stuff stolen....
We thought maybe we would convert to a Chapter 13, but have a feeling the trustee may oppose it and then we would be starting over...at this point I just don't want her to deny our discharge...
If ANYONE can offer ANY advice, please do so...we really need it...
Is the insurance company going to pay the trustee directly, are they going to deny our claim because we are in bankruptcy and the trustee is entitled to money?!! Please anyone...if you have any advice or experience with this...

[jmarsh]

Also...that smiley face is supposed to be screaming in frustration, not high fiving happy

[SMinGA]

For whoever told you to use pawn shop value - where they aware you had a $12k appraisal? I think that changes the value you should claim. More than likely, you will need to find some way to settle with the trustee on it. I'm not sure how the insurance company will handle things. Someone here recently had her car totaled after filing ch. 13, and her insurance co would not pay off the old loan & send her the overage til they received something from the trustee... (She needed the overage to buy a replacement vehicle.)

[jmarsh]

It was a 12,000 appraisal, but it was originally bought for $7300. We are hoping we can settle with her somehow...waiting to hear back from the insurance company and the trustee is aware of what's going on. Heard back from the trusttee today. She said she would like to see copies of everything...lists of stolen items, policy etc...
I am just concerned that she will not discharge us at this point...

[jmarsh]

Our attorney said that we will have to file amended schedules/values of exemptions...
I just get concerned about the discharge...we really weren't trying to hide anything and gave the amounts that we thought were correct. If you tried to sell my jewelry resale you would have been lucky to get $4000...that's why we went on a high end value...
The insurance company is giving us replacement cost based on new items...the fact of the matter is that the jewelry was between 6-10 years old...

[music12]

i am confused. the 60 days after your 341 passed in february. did the trustee file an objection to discharge during the 60 days? if not, you should get your discharge and i don't know why the trustee was entitled to know about this break-in. it's just really late in the bk game. so, i'm confused!

[jmarsh]

You're confused? I am def lost in this...she keeps filing for continuances hours before the the last one is up. We thought we were out of the woods and now this...
My attorney thinks it might be a good idea to convert to 13...what do you think

[catleg]

No. Stick to chapter 7 and get it over with.

[jmarsh]

What if they deny my discharge...that is what is making me crazy!...has this happened to anyone on here?

[backtoschool]

Your trustee is planning on turning you into a chapter 7 asset case most likely. Your attorney will be able to negotiate with the trustee for a settlement amount for all of your property, and you will be able to pay the trustee in installments. Usually trustees will settle for 50% or so of the retail value, but there is no hard and fast rule to this, and if you make a good faith offer on your property that is not covered by exemptions, then the trustee may take it just to move the case forward.

The trustee will use the insurance appraisals and the replacement costs to determine the starting point in the negotiations. Your attorney will have to filed amended exemptions.

Once you have agreed to a buy back price with the trustee, then the trustee will draw up paperwork and you will have to pay the trustee either in a lump sum or in payments. Once the agreed upon amount is paid in full then the trustee will draw up a schedule to pay your creditors and the court will cut checks to your creditors. The creditors will have 90 days to cash the checks. It takes awhile for all of the paperwork in an asset case to get agreed upon and finalized, but it still will be easier and end more quickly than filing chapter 13.

My asset case just closed this week. I was discharged the first week of November, 2009.

[catleg]

You kind of got caught with your hand in the cookie jar there a little bit.

Now granted a jewelry appraisal is a fantasy unless it's an offer to buy at that price.

I see these ads, guaranteed to appraise for double what you paid. Yeah, right.

You'll have to pay the man something, this is why you pay your lawyer, not to file papers but for advice and to negotiate.

[jmarsh]

I really didn't get my hand caught in the cookie jar...my hand was right there in front of the trustee at the 341 meeting....with my rings on. I was not trying to hide anything. I sincerely thought, and was told by my lawyer, to use the price that you could get if you went to a jeweler and sold it...and like I said, it's pretty unlikely, having paid 7300 for the ring 10 years ago and being a used engagement ring, that a jeweler would have given me much more than a couple thousand dollars...
As far as explaining where the values came from, my lawyer is certainly not going to tell the trustee that is was under his advice. My case is already an asset case at this point because we turned over half of an IRA. Now she wants the paperwork for the insurance claim and I'm sure she's going to want any extra. My cameras were 7 years old, but my insurance company replaces new so there goes that extra too...
If we file an amended schedules, and are able to cover some of this and give her what she wants...is it likely she will still try to recommend a denial of discharge? This is what concerns me..she can have the whole check if she wants, I just want this over with...
This trustee is a real pill and my attorney is not her biggest fan...not sure if that is why he trying to get me to convert the case to a 13...he would get paid another $2000 and he wouldn't have to deal with her. At any rate, she could then object to the conversion and we would be right back in Chapter 7 with her and now she would be further annoyed...
My question is..do you think she will try to deny the discharge because it appears that I was concealing the insurance....FYI..as soon as I realized the amounts were larger than what I claimed, I had my attorney call her and notify her of the difference. However, there is still that 12,000 appraisal. She has to know those aren't accurate, right? I cannot stress enough how this is not as it appears...I know everyone says that...but really, I could not make this stuff up..
Our house gets broken into and we get completely cleaned out and we are going to have to pay the trustee for the new value of things that we can't even replace...so essentially, we are paying on top of having all of our things stolen...
Very frustrating...

[jmarsh]

BTW>..congrats on your long awaited discharge...

[catleg]

I'm sorry, did not mean to suggest anything improper. Valuation of stuff is always highly subjective.
Sounds like you're in middle district Fla. People have a lot of trouble there.
I would love to know more about the IRA. Was it an inheritance or funded from your earnings. Normally those are untouchable.
Wait and see what the insurance offers, forget about the appraisal.
Don't over think things. Things move at a glacial pace in BK.
You'll probably have to give them something but not everything.
Don't let the lawyer push you into a 13 however.
Remember the trustee wants cash not an $8000 ring.
So your bargaining position is, you want the ring, you got it.
Then she counter offers well I'll take $4000 in cash.
But you declared it as 4000, so you offer $2000.
Something like that.

[backtoschool]

I think you are worrying too much.

The trustee gets paid a percentage of the proceeds from the assets she discovers and liquidates. It is in her best interest to keep your case an asset chapter 7. Your insurance pay out for your stolen items do not constitute extra hidden income that would push you into a chapter 13. If you can afford to hand over the entire insurance check, then you will be a chapter 7 asset case without a doubt. But I do not think you need to hand over the entire insurance check. Use the appraisals of your stolen items, and the insurance check as a starting point and have your attorney negotiate with the trustee.

I do not see anything in your description that would force you into a dismissal. If police reports were filed, and the house was genuinely robbed, and you have disclosed the insurance pay out, then there is no fraud as long as you amend your exemptions, and negotiate with the trustee on a payment for your non exempt assets.