If I fire BK Atty 4 negl. does he HAVE to refund paid court filing fee?

[FLcruisergal]

Help! (excuse wording, not illiterate. I abbreviated words to fit in post)
Sorry it's long, but with legal, I would prefer you have the whole picture, so that anyone doesn't come back and ask if I didn't submit something, or give him ifo, etc...thank you!!!
Situation:
I have a very simple BK 7, w/less than $4K assets in unsecured debts-no zero. Just want new "polite" Atty, n move on. Only things done on case is I wrote quesionaire + 52 medical entries n income/exps. Then proofed the crt docs Got back n fixed their errors. When Atty saw changes that he said to write ON the docs, he yelled-Come in Wed (2 days ago) and fix errors to file Friday! I had/have serious questions as to whether I should file a Bnkrcy at all b/c I learned of SOL on debts. I was NEVER ALLOWED to ask any questions like-Ch 7 better than 13? make a payment plan? I COULD NOT give my Atty any info he might need to answer any ques. THAT I DIDN'T GET TO ASK, beauase honestly:
A) He and other lady-assume Paralegal-would not return my calls. AND
B) When I did get a few calls back all yr, one a few days ago, my Atty, or the rude Lady (refuses to give me her name?) SIMPLY SCREAMS-"If you want it dismised, put it on the questionaire n send it!"

I have never dealt w/people like this, tho heard stupid Atty jokes I didn't believe. I know-not allwd in court-but I recorded call a few days ago ONLY FOR FAMILY to see what I'd been dealing with. Guessed? Minute he got on phone, I COULD NOT get 1 word into the call, not even to immed. let him know I had other person on call n I was recording. Yes, not admissable but I want to be fair to people. This 1 sided call w/o me able to talk at all ENDED with-"Will you be here Wednesday at 9:30 a.m.-Yes or No?!"
My Mom now knows what I meant by, "I can't get any questions answered!"
Does anyone know about these docs required by law that has to go to client???.......
1--"Bankruptcy Information Sheet" ? Or
2--"U.S.C. ss 527 (B) Disclosure" Or
3--"11 U.S.C. ss 527 (a)(2) Disclosure?

"By law", I read that these docs need to be signed by client after being retained, but but filing? I have NEVER SEEN THEM or signed them, although I see it says I received and rad them....on the contract he wouldn't let me read...that I signed in his tiny lobby after-hours. That "hoped for discussion" about what would be best for me (advised in that 527 disclosure I found) never happened. If he wants to file Friday, what was he going to do? Have me sign as he hit "send" on keyboard?

Issues on the disclosures s/h been discussed are some of THE EXACT questions I hoped my Atty would go over/answer in the very first week. Started right away trying to get him to call back all year. I have NO Exp. with "mean" people who use intimidation-threats. I stay away, so yes, it worked. His Authoritarian yelling scared me.

Remember, he told me-Come in, after hours and had to pay "IN-FULL", not the $75-Get Started Web advert. fee.Becuase I told him, it would take long time to get it all together. O.K. I thought. He was even happy b/c he had no time due to work as he had a 1 week old baby.
But to threaten me, only 60 days into me trying to find tons of bills, was scary. When I reminded him of above (a lot of time+paid in-full) he SCREAMED and denied it. What could I do, other than say, "Well, why did I have to pay in full, when others do not"? Just wanted it correct-no point arguing w/this guy. He fire me n I lose $? He didn't write notes, no time tons of clients as he was only $1,000-Ch 7. I had threat from him-$500 if he didn't get quest. in 5 dys-claimed did more than I paid, I was stunned me as my Atty had only confirmed I was filing BK 7 to only 5 companies in all those months. How is that more cost then the entire fee I paid i-full?
How do u argue w/a guy like that? U don't.
I found those "527 Disclosures" on web as I rushed to try to see if I was compliant, as it was not his job. He said he was submitting what I sent, and it was up to me to do it right!!!. On web, found full-serv n DIY n realized I got less than full-serv-$139. saw if had chgd banks as he said 2-is fraud! Scared it's wrong n not all debts dismissd-Don't know what I'm doing. Scammed?

I know when I fire my Attorney he "should not" keep the filing fee since my case wasn't filed, but since I've heard it's a "State Bar ethics" issue, not an "official rule", then since he is unethical he will say he will not do it.
He obviously knows most low-income people are "innocent", and keeps the filing fees when someone lets him go, or he closes the case. Someone would have research and find out it's a "Bar ethics" issue and file a St Bar Complaint to get his attention.

Without something more than an ambiguous "St. Bar Lawyer Ethic guideline", he will not care, and will NOT refund the court filing fee...honestly. He is not a nice person. If he cared at all about "Bar ethics", he wouldn't do what he did.
And, in his contract he said:
The "Flat Fee" charge is $1,000. All "deposits" are deemed earned and are non-refundable.
Attorney fee-$XXX.00
Document reproduction/postage-$XX.00
Court filing fee-$299.00
Then Total Ch 7 fees/costs-$X,XXX.00

The breakdown of that DOES specifically state $299-Court filing fee,[/I] but again, if he was ethical, he wouldn't have phrased that paragraph to specifically include a government charge as included as the "Flat Fee, non-refundable".

Can he "legally" keep the court filing fee?

Can ANYONE please direct me to something I can show or tell him? A St Bar case where disiplinary action was taken b/c of this type of Non-refunding? ANY "official rule" you know where to fid?

If none of that can be found (i have looked) ANY advice on how to ask for the refund???....in light of how he worded:.. "Flat Fee" charge is $1,000. All "deposits" are deemed earned and are non-refundable.
Thank you guys so much for any experience you have on this!!!

[justbroke]

Well, it does need to be earned. The filing fee is not "earned". You should just contact the bar.

I must tell you... if your total fee was only $1,000 then you a.) got a very low fee which is far below average, and. b.) you get what you pay for. The only attorneys that charge low fees are bankruptcy mills. They just churn through them day in and day out and don't do "extras" because that would raise the cost.

If you want hand holding and explanations, you will have to pay for it since the attorney or his staff would spend more time with you. Unfortunately, you probably didn't know the correlation between the fee and the attention, and I'm sorry you learned it the hard way.

[tigergem]

If he hasn't filed it yet, just ask him to return the filing fee. Whether he will or won't, I don't know. Show up at your appointment and ask him.

[SMinGA]

I can't help but wonder - why would you pay & retain an attorney that treated you that way?

[FLcruisergal]

I can't help but wonder - why would you pay & retain an attorney that treated you that way?

Well, in defenses....I didn't know ANY of this would happen. He was nice in the first and only time I saw him.

He didn't even explain the BASICS of BK7, so I assumed a few phone calls over several months to see if something is allowable would not be out of the question. I am not a BK expert. That is why I hired him, but he didn't give me 527 disclosures, and asked me to change banks to "hide money". Since I had to research everything myself, I found out that IF I HAD done that, it could have been fraud--"hiding property", and my petition dismissed and even criminal charges This turned out to be a case of Pro se, but if I messed up, Atty threatened there would be more charges. I honestly never have dealt with a mean person like this, and was shocked all year.

Does an Atty have to have you sign a specific, different form that is separate from the "main" contract claiming you reviewed and received 527 disclosures? Or can, like he did, just add 1 line in the only contract saying "I rec'd and reviewed"???

He did not let me read contract, AFTER HOURS, and when I wanted to read it at 8:00 pm, he said "It's all standard BK wordig...sign here.
He was NICE in first meeting. Then immediately was rude.

I had to pay in full that night I talked to him and he said drive over now! I had depo for $5,000 C.C. judgement I signed b/c Big collection co said if I signed, it was just saying that I owed the money and I wouldn't have to to (scary) COURT with a JUDGE. Then a scary "depositino" letter came.
Atty said they would take away from a single Mom my old, paid $900 car, $150 ni bank, $300 furniture and $50 clothes. I depo, collect co just confirmed I was going to file and before leaving said, "We have neve taken an old car away from a single unemployed Mom"--on recorded depo!

This has bee so unethical, it's scary. When court docs came in, he said to sign in 10 places and makes changes ON THE DOCS. They made so may typos that could have allowed creditors to get a ton of money, and simple $ typos, and name typos, etc, that there were a lot of changes to docs. When he got it? Guess? More money for 1 redraw of their errors.

He said I had to show up on Wedesday and make the changes on clean copy, still w/o knowing if I am entering info correctly and he was going to file what I put down on Friday (today). So, of course I didn't go. I'm sure he closed the case.

I am too scared that this is all wrong, and I will owe lots, and be held liable. I need to take the hit, and get a new atty, but why should I pay for a court filing fee if it wasn't filed? I know I won't get any Atty fee back, as cotract says "all deposits are deemed earned and nonrefundable". (He included filing fee in Flat Fee)


Please....Is this correct??...
Knowing him, is all I can do is ask for the refund and appeal to his "ethics", asking him to refer to the
St of FL Bar,
Rules of Professional conduct
rule 4-1.16 "Decliing or Terminating Representation"
(d) Protection of clients interests
.....upon termination of representation, a lawyer SHOULD refund to client any advanced payments of a fee that has not been earned...

I'm a nice person, I stay away from mean people, but after dealing with all his poor and unethical conduct.... I KNOW he will say that the filing fee is included in the "Flat Fee and is deemed earned and Non-refundanle."

What else can I do?
Being stuipidly naive, I didn't record calls, and make special notes. I trusted that an Atty had my best interest as his primary goal. (but I've had to learn it the hard way) Honestly, I feel that after him doing almost nothing, (just the gal i his office entering in my questionaire which I did not have the opp to know if it was correct-all year she wouldn't tell me her name. Anyone find that unusual?)...getting less than a full- serv pro se service, and telling me to do things that could be fraud..yes, I do feel that he didn't earn his Atty fee and I should't have to pay his whole fee, but I signed it's "deemed earned".

Any advice on what to say to an unethical Atty...other than what I said about the Bar rule? The $299 is really a lot of money to me, and need for new Atty!!

THANKS EVERYONE!!!!!

[tigergem]

ask for the return of your filing fee if no case has been filed.

[FLcruisergal]

[QUOTE=tigergem;417153]so that they could not find where my money was.

I appreciate your comment, but it's not the situation you described, and I did look up the issue of "hiding property", before I switched banks, just to be sure, and it included funds/banks.

As you quoted:
And yeah, pretty much, if you saw, read and received a copy of those
disclosures, (which you probably did) all you would get is a one liner to sign
affirming that you saw, read and received it.

Not used to posting on "help" boards, or deling with people in the legal establishment, I am again, quite surprised by your assumption that the client is wrong and or misinformed, or did not fulfill requirements. I had hoped for friendly support in finally posting on a board.

ANYWAY....No, I did not receive the "disclosures"or read them, which I meant as:
(BK Info sheet, U.S.C. ss 527 (B) Disclosure and 11 U.S.C. ss 527 (a)(2) Disclosure.

I saw the phrase on the contract, (that is still originally stapled together), and assumed I would receive it, or it would be mailed, or WHEN I got home and when was able to read it, it would be included verbiage in the contract, which the latter was my final assumption....until during all the DIY research, I read about it being a separate

When I say/mean Pro Se, I mean "do it yourself", or "Full-Serv provider ", not using an expert Atty. I did everything myself, without any questions being answered, so what's the difference in buying software and doing the research yourself, AS I DID IN THIS CASE?

I DID provide the attorney with complete and accurate information in order to enable him to prepare my case by turning in everything on his questionaire and all additional requirements, taxes, pre-filing certificate, etc.
What I got back was a mess of typos and errors that could have caused creditors to be able to collect on mnoey that was not entered correctly, (US BK website: Date Vs Date range) plus due to the errors, the judge could dismiss my case for the errors, even though, as I researched "it was unitentional".

And I HAVE TO PAY for a redraw of all their errors? He wouldn't even return the call asking what constituted a "re-draw"!

Have you ever met, or heard first hand of an unethical Atty?
Then, after all this why would not contemplate the possibility that I am/was working with one? Unless there never has been one, and that is just a made up name, then of course I could understand your assumptions.

I've heard the phrase, but did not know what that was until I researched what he was not doing as basic necessary requirements to insure an accurate filing. This wasn't miscomunication or misunderstanding. It was not taking calls, screaming (both him and the 1 other lady in office). I am a Director ni a Large Corporate office, and am very smart about uderstanding anything I've been told....that is, IF I WAS EVER told. Too bad I was burned.

I'm sure others out there have posted about theirs too.

Thank you for telling me I should ask him, which I was doing, but was hoping for an answer of how or where other than St Bar

[blessed]

My head hurts.

Changing banks is not fraud. Most of us changed banks to avoid a cross-collateralization mess.

[justbroke]

My head hurts.

My head hurts too having read all that.

Changing banks is not fraud. Most of us changed banks to avoid a cross-collateralization mess.

It is fraud if there is already a judgment and this is a questionnaire seeking to determine where "garnishable" assets are.

[blessed]

My head hurt too bad to figure out there was already a judgment. Sorry. LOL

[FLcruisergal]

Fired! Stress?...gone!

My head hurts too having read all that.

It is fraud if there is already a judgment and this is a questionnaire seeking to determine where "garnishable" assets are.

Exactly! Thank you. My Head hurt too!...until today...fired!

Way too risky. If my Atty would not return call asking what a 341 is, and I was supposed to file today, does that give you a clue that I was not explained anything about the BK? And I was 100% responsible for their errors? Thanks...I'll take the $ hit and RUN.

At least the ending of this thread shows what a costly mess could happen if you don't do your due diligence on an Atty, as I didn't and hired what a previous poster called something like "a $1,000 cheap Atty Mill biz"!!

Thanks to those who gave me good advice. It's very nice of you to take the time. I'm tossig my Advil now!
G'nite

[justbroke]

I think that you have some complexities that I'm sure I don't understand. I hope that you're saying that you fired the attorney, and that you yourself were not fired! I do wish that every attorney was in it for the dedicated and not "just" in it for the money.

I fully understand that some attorneys are difficult to work with. (This coming from a pro se debtor!)

[tigergem]

I hope you realize, that no matter what attorney you go to, you are going to have to list your debts and assets all over again. One at a time. Neatly. In a way that the attorney/paralegal can understand. After the attorney/paralegal completes your forms, you are going to have to review them for accuracy. Again. I'm sure this is a lot of work, and maybe even tedious, but this is not what makes a case "Pro Se".