Getting my daughter to college help please.

[Toby629]

We have spent the last 9 years putting two sons through college. First son, went to in-state school and was able to get two scholarships and grants, and he took advantage of work-study program and worked tutoring, that money he earned went towards his tuition. We refinanced home to make up difference. Youngest son just graduated this month from college in our home town. Saved money on dorm expenses as he lived at home while attending. Definately, fill out FAFSA every year as that helped with financial aid. Youngest son had to use college loans as DH lost his job 3 yr. ago and not able to find comparable paying employment. Our son knows he has to pay these loans himself as we obviously are in no financial shape to help him right now. It's true not everyone needs to go to college, but if the child is choosing a career that requires a college degree, it is worth it to take on student loans, but they should also seek out and take advantage of scholarships, grants, FAFSA, work-study programs, and working part-time etc. so as to lower any amount through student loans.

Our oldest son is now in a master's program for anesthesiology, he had to use student loans for this program, he has one more year and when he is done, there is a demand for his specialty and he will start a salary in the low 6 figures with a good signup bonus. His first priority is to pay off all his student loans as soon as possible.

[baytrooper]

We are waiting for discharge on a Chapter 7 and our son also is going to college in the Fall. He is getting a small grant (500.00) and the max on FASA but he still needs about $10,000.00 for the year. First year on FASA is not a lot. We've applied to over 12 scholarships and only recieved a small amount only on one. I've contacted the Fin.Aid department and told them our situation and wasn't given any help whatsoever. What is the secret to get the Fin. Aid department at college to help to get more aid? Otherwise, he has no choice but to work and get a student loan with the help of a grandparent.

[dumpinmydebt]

If he is only getting $500, they not feel he is the neediest as the neediest get around $5k (something like that.) Aid is factored by what Fafsa (which is out of the school's hands) determines your expected family contribution to be and the school's cost of attendance (which is created by the school, but is the same for everyone.) That's it.

The only option he may have is to try and get into a work study, but consider that is also a needs based program.

[ecsclb1724]

We are waiting for discharge on a Chapter 7 and our son also is going to college in the Fall. He is getting a small grant (500.00) and the max on FASA but he still needs about $10,000.00 for the year. First year on FASA is not a lot. We've applied to over 12 scholarships and only recieved a small amount only on one. I've contacted the Fin.Aid department and told them our situation and wasn't given any help whatsoever. What is the secret to get the Fin. Aid department at college to help to get more aid? Otherwise, he has no choice but to work and get a student loan with the help of a grandparent.

is he receiving a need based grant? If so he should be able to take out a student loan to make up the difference.

I'm concerned though, a 10K loan for one year of school is very large... why is so much needed? Is he planning on going to a private school? Is it an option for him to go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer to a state college? It may not be the most glamorous option but lots of people do it and save TONS. He also really needs to look at his future career in determining how much he will even be able to afford in student loans once he finds a job. A doctor will be able to afford more in student loan payments than a psychology major (and good luck finding a professional job with just a bachelor's in psych). This is coming from an early outreach college grant director, it kills me to see kids maxing out on their student loans with a degree in english or history.

[GWBcasualty]

In general, if someone has to borrow to go to college, I would SERIOUSLY reconsider either the choice of school or going to school at this point in life. Student loans create indentured servitude and most careers these days do not pay enough for a person to service student loan debt.

I am going to disagree with you, with the premise that the youth must be a brilliant student.

I did not go to college. Started my own business, made a lot of money... had my share of bad luck and here I am. Damned to run a business for life, for better or worse, or else I can go work for peanuts.

All my friends were going to college, some borrowed to do so, and all of them were envious of my choice and my success up to my late 30s.... well now they are all in better situations and, most importantly, if something happens with their job they are qualified to get another one....

I will regret not to have obtained a higher education (or should I say degree) for the rest of my life. It was a choice made out of ignorance, hubris and youthful exuberance.

My two cents... no intentions to hijack the thread.

[ecsclb1724]

I also have to disagree about student loans being horrible in college. The vast majority of students come out with some form of student loans (unless parents pay for their college) and if the student is SMART when borrowing, student loans are nothing to be afraid of.

[dumpinmydebt]

I don't think student loans are horrible either, as long as you borrow wisely for field you are going into. I'm in culinary school. Some schools are crazy expensive, but I have a ton of experience and connections so I'm going to the community college for $5k per year. My wife is in nursing school and she could easily spend $20k per year to not have to wait on a waitlist, but we are filing bk and we know the importance of as little debt as possible. She is getting her Associate's at the community college and then it will take her 3 years to get her Master's at the university, which is actually quite affordable compared to other universities. So she will end up with around $50K in debt (only because of tuition reimbursement otherwise it would be higher). It may be lower if she keeps getting scholarships. However, Nurse Practitioner's make at least $80K per year, usually around $100K, so 50K in loans is justifiable to me.

I have a relative who is going to be around $60K in debt with an English degree.... ugh. And I know someone who is going to be almost 100K in debt (thanks to expensive University of Phoenix) for a Master's in Psychology. And the kicker is you really need a doctorate to be a psychologist.

[JackBondLove]

A doctor will be able to afford more in student loan payments than a psychology major (and good luck finding a professional job with just a bachelor's in psych). This is coming from an early outreach college grant director, it kills me to see kids maxing out on their student loans with a degree in english or history.

What do you think about the cost vs. benefits for THIS degree:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/29money.html?src=me&ref=general

[backtoschool]

What do you think about the cost vs. benefits for THIS degree:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/yo...me&ref=general

This is an excellent article. I am in the same position discussed in this article. I went to a very good, but expensive public university, and managed to only accrue around $10k in loans for my whole degree because the university was very frugal in handing out loan money and I was on a full tuition scholarship. But when I went to graduate school, at an ivy league school, I amassed a HUGE amount of debt. I thought that the name brand of the school would be worth the investment so I took on the loans. I worked in Europe for a few years and my loans ended up in default due to my irresponsibility in handling the paperwork and tracking them all down, etc. When I came back to the states, I ended up getting a good job, but not good enough to live in nyc and pay the huge payments, so I kept deferring, etc, and the interest piled up. I never was able to handle the payments and all my expenses in nyc. When the stock market crashed, I lost my job, and moved to the midwest to lower my expenses and go back to school (this time on fellowship.) With consolodation fees, default fees, collection fees, compounded interest, and the balance of the loans themselves, I still owe around $100k in loans with no way to discharge them.

I now have a decent job (decent with moderate pay relative to my loan debt though) and am in school as well. Once I am out of school, I will end up having to keep my loans on various extended pay plans just to be able to handle the payments. I will be saddled with the payments for the next 20 years.

Do I regret taking on the debt? Sometimes, although to be honest, my name brand education has opened a lot of doors for me. Would I do it again? Probably, but I would not default this time, and I would try to find ways to offset some of the discretionary expenses (like summer trips to Europe) that I fueled with loans.

It's a tough decision for parents and students to make, because often, the social networks and recommendations that you get at a top tier school open doors that are difficult to open any other way. But the price is expensive, and I will be paying it my entire adult life.

I filed for bankruptcy to remove my other debt so that I can handle eventually paying this huge loan debt.

[HHM]

I also have to disagree about student loans being horrible in college. The vast majority of students come out with some form of student loans (unless parents pay for their college) and if the student is SMART when borrowing, student loans are nothing to be afraid of.

Are you seriously making the argument that "because everyone else is doing it, it must be okay."

The thing is, over the last 30 years, society has developed a mind set (as evidenced by some of the responses in this forum) that it is okay to borrow for things you want (the irony, you are all here on this BK forum because of that mindset). My point is, we have to bring some reasonableness back to student lending.

For example, in no world should a person get $90,000 in student loans for a degree is social work. The average social worker makes less than $40,000 per year. That salary cannot service that debt.

The borrower (and schools) need to do some sort of economic analysis of the value of the education. Don't get me wrong, I am all for education for the sake of education, but not by putting yourself in serious debt. A lawyer friend of mine recently told me about a person he met with, has $80,000 in student loans for a degree in journalism and the only job he can get is working as a sales clerk at a sporting goods store making less than $10 per hour. He may be able to get a job in his field at some point, but he will be in default by then, interest will be spiraling out of control and there is no way he can every pay it off.

The borrower needs to approach the purchase of education like any other purchase. You cannot have a Porsche on a Ford budget.

[backtoschool]

Are you seriously making the argument that "because everyone else is doing it, it must be okay."

The thing is, over the last 30 years, society has developed a mind set (as evidenced by some of the responses in this forum) that it is okay to borrow for things you want (the irony, you are all here on this BK forum because of that mindset). My point is, we have to bring some reasonableness back to student lending.

For example, in no world should a person get $90,000 in student loans for a degree is social work. The average social worker makes less than $40,000 per year. That salary cannot service that debt.

The borrower (and schools) need to do some sort of economic analysis of the value of the education. Don't get me wrong, I am all for education for the sake of education, but not by putting yourself in serious debt. A lawyer friend of mine recently told me about a person he met with, has $80,000 in student loans for a degree in journalism and the only job he can get is working as a sales clerk at a sporting goods store making less than $10 per hour. He may be able to get a job in his field at some point, but he will be in default by then, interest will be spiraling out of control and there is no way he can every pay it off.

The borrower needs to approach the purchase of education like any other purchase. You cannot have a Porsche on a Ford budget.

I agree with this post HHM. Unfortunately, in some professions, there is a "class" system in this country where you cannot get a porsche earning job without a porsche degree. The top law firms only recruit from the top law schools, Wall Street only hires from name brand schools, etc. Is this fair? No. But it is the way it works, at least for now. I could have earned a lot more money with my degree if I had been willing to take on a different type of job and check my ethics at the door (ie I could have taken a different type of wall street job) I chose to earn less money, and have a job that interested me more, and I am paying that price now in regards to student loans, and will pay that price for the next 20 years or so.

It used to be the case that huge student loan debt was only acquired by people who were getting professional degrees that would pay enough in earnings to pay off the debt. But tuition went up, fellowships and employer tuition reimbursement went down, and now people who should not be funding their degrees with loans are doing so because there is no other funding available.

It was President Johnson in the 1960's that expanded the scope of higher education and made it a national mandate to work towards the goal of making higher education available to everyone. I think we are going back to the pre-Johnson era of elitism in education where only the wealthy and privileged will be able to go to the top tiered schools. Maybe this isn't so bad, and there is nothing in those schools that is worth the price those schools charge. Maybe local universities and community colleges are good enough. But somehow it doesn't seem "fair" that a bright, creative middle class student should not be able to work with the best minds in a field, even if that field is not one that is a high earning field.

I have no answers to this, and we all know that life isn't necessarily fair. I just wish the system was different that's all.

[HHM]

backtoshcool, I agree, that is the rub in this scenario.

But I really don't think that is where the problem lies. It is not the students that are going to Yale, Harvard, NYU, etc that are having problems with student loan debt. The elite schools attract the elite talent, (the majority of elite talent was spawned by elite talent etc), The elite talent get scholarships, financial aid, and generally have parents or resources to pay the difference. Aside from a small percentage, it is not students going to elite schools that are in trouble with student loan debt. And as you said, they get the better path to employment.

The problem lies in the average student (I am not trying to be elitist here, but I cannot think of a politically correct way to write this). The students that aren't talented enough for merit based aid, whose parents don't have meaningful resources to pay for school, these are the students that are ending up with $40,000 PLUS in student loan debt from state schools and private schools for an education that does not have the economic value to pay for the loans. Although I appreciate your point, the student loan crisis exists in the "average" schools.

As for tuition increasing, I think that was a direct result of the easy flow of student loans. Student loans allowed more people to attend school; this created increased demand, to meet that demand, schools grew and increased their fixed costs; so tuition increased. It is a vicious cycle. I am not convinced that as a society, we are better for it. The bachelors degree is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 30-40 years ago. When a McDonalds asst. manager is required to have a bachelors degree, that tells you something. Granted, colleges are not 100% at fault the colleges were put in a position where they had to help student "catch up" because the K-12 system in the U.S. is lowest common denominator education. In order for colleges to keep their bureaucracy; they have to admit less qualified individuals (individuals that cannot afford college) and help them get caught up with special programs and move them through the system.

[backtoschool]

backtoshcool, I agree, that is the rub in this scenario.

But I really don't think that is where the problem lies. It is not the students that are going to Yale, Harvard, NYU, etc that are having problems with student loan debt. The elite schools attract the elite talent, (the majority of elite talent was spawned by elite talent etc), The elite talent get scholarships, financial aid, and generally have parents or resources to pay the difference. Aside from a small percentage, it is not students going to elite schools that are in trouble with student loan debt. And as you said, they get the better path to employment.

The problem lies in the average student (I am not trying to be elitist here, but I cannot think of a politically correct way to write this). The students that aren't talented enough for merit based aid, whose parents don't have meaningful resources to pay for school, these are the students that are ending up with $40,000 PLUS in student loan debt from state schools and private schools for an education that does not have the economic value to pay for the loans. Although I appreciate your point, the student loan crisis exists in the "average" schools.

As for tuition increasing, I think that was a direct result of the easy flow of student loans. Student loans allowed more people to attend school; this created increased demand, to meet that demand, schools grew and increased their fixed costs; so tuition increased. It is a vicious cycle. I am not convinced that as a society, we are better for it. The bachelors degree is about the equivalent of a high school diploma 30-40 years ago. When a McDonalds asst. manager is required to have a bachelors degree, that tells you something. Granted, colleges are not 100% at fault the colleges were put in a position where they had to help student "catch up" because the K-12 system in the U.S. is lowest common denominator education. In order for colleges to keep their bureaucracy; they have to admit less qualified individuals (individuals that cannot afford college) and help them get caught up with special programs and move them through the system.

Again, I totally agree with you HHM. Before I took on the full time job that I currently have, I was mentoring students at a lower tier university that is about ten miles from the top tier university that I am currently getting my second graduate degree from. The admission requirements for the university I was volunteering at were basically a pulse and the ability to fill out a fafsa form. The students I was helping were flunking out of school. Most of them could not read up to college levels. Many of them could not perform basic adult tasks such as setting their alarm clock so that they did not miss their midterms and get an F grade on the midterm.

Some of the students I tutored and mentored tried really hard. They studied, they tried to read the material, they went to their professor's office hours. But they were just not prepared for college level work, and it was not clear to me that they would ever catch up. All of these students were taking loans out to pay for their education, and many of them will carry that debt into their adult lives, without obtaining a degree to show for it.

I remember one session I had with a student. He was one of the ones that tried really hard, but just couldn't seem to pass his classes. I asked him what he really loved to do. He said he really wanted to become a chef, but his parents were forcing him to get a college degree. They didn't want him going to the community college and taking the culinary courses. He sounded so wistful when he talked about the lost opportunity to study cooking at the community college.

[HHM]

Yep, I taught at a state university for 5 years (part time) teaching introductory courses. It was tough to see these kids just not trying or not living up to their potential (and I hate to say it, some that were living up to their potential but just could hack it). This is when I divide elitism and arrogance. It is hard not to be somewhat elitist when you are faced with the reality that not everyone is equal in talent or ability. What I can't stand, though, is elitism combined with arrogance (like most politicians, especially those on the left).

In any event, I think student lending needs to be reformed, and much more than the 2014 law that was recently passed. But my solution is more a scorched earth scenario. I would cut off lending to a large extent, allow a whole bunch of schools to go belly up, and bring reasonableness back into the lending with economic criteria into the picture.

[backtoschool]

Yep, I taught at a state university for 5 years (part time) teaching introductory courses. It was tough to see these kids just not trying or not living up to their potential (and I hate to say it, some that were living up to their potential but just could hack it). This is when I divide elitism and arrogance. It is hard not be somewhat elitist when you are faced with the reality that not everyone is equal in talent or ability. What I can't stand, though, is elitism combined with arrogance (like most politicians, especially those on the left).

In any event, I think student lending needs to be reformed, and much more than the 2014 law that was recently passed. But my solution is more a scorched earth scenario. I would cut off lending to a large extent, allow a whole bunch of schools to go belly up, and bring reasonableness back into the lending with economic criteria into the picture.

Well I have been called "liberal", "elitist", and "arrogant", on this board by other members (not you HHM) and believe that the all of the labels have correctly applied to me at one point or another.

On a serious note though, I totally agree with you that we need to let some of these Johnson-era created, lower-tier universities fail and we need to bring back trade schools and other forms of useful training (with job placement and apprenticeships being part of the program) for those that are not equipped to get a college degree.

But I also would like to see a true meritocracy come back to the top tier universities, where more middle class students will be fully funded with grants and scholarships. Most merit based scholarships are either too small to cover the tuition at a top tier university, or are need based, and therefore are not available to a large percentage of the middle class. With endowment funds of top tier universities having taken a beating in the stock market crash of late 2008, there is less non-loan financial aid to go around unfortunately.