Which of these 6 expenses are challenged Sched J?

[Moneypenny]

Looking forward family of 4, with two 5-yr olds:

$50 school lunch for first graders, but no receipts cause they are in K now

$79 adult exercise membership (yoga, but the real expense is $158 for 2)

$65 two children's gymnastics fees

$100 book purchasing and research costs (professor, not a good track record on keeping receipts: I am severely disorganized, that's how i got into this mess)

$50 professional memberships, dues, subscriptions (professor)

$100 life insurance policy purchased on the eve of bankruptcy.

Total: $444

I need 344 of this to count to be at 0 disposable income. the life is something i want to get pre-bk for qualification and rates reasons, not really trying to pull anything off and its not crucial unless a lot of other things get thrown out.

If a trustee just challenged two or three of these... POOF! five years of servitude.

How vulnerable am I? Anyone know what to do about kindergarteners who dont have school lunch now, but will after filing?

Can a trustee throw you into a 13 based on something like "You dont need to go to the gym to exercise, you can exercise at home?" Just one little opinion like that and your whole life changes.

Any little thing like this and I am screwed, at least as far as I can tell without a lawyer.

thanks, i promise to stop posting soon,

MMP

[mtbc]

You probably don't need to be actually down at 0 DMI? I don't recall the exact figures, but depending on the size of your debt, you're safe between around $100 and $200 DMI I thought?

[Moneypenny]

maybe i need 244 of this to count then. its not exact science, just shooting for 0. But any of these might be challenged. was wondering which ones are likely. i still dont understand the system: seems like it would take a trustee two seconds to shoot these down and put me in a 13, and make some money. Why wouldn't he/she spend a few seconds to make a few bucks? But I digress from the real purpose of this thread, these actual expenses and numbers

[mtbc]

The trustee doesn't get to decide, they just file motions, and it costs them time and effort to do so. Just like, trustees can't dismiss cases either. Assuming that you don't just immediately roll over, but instead defend your position, the trustee has to appear in court and it's the judge who decides.

(Well, maybe not appear, but the judge still gets to weigh the arguments of both sides, assuming both sides contribute arguments.)

[Moneypenny]

oh i see. but i'm still wondering about these expenses, if they could be thrown out.
i guess it would be a judge that would ultimately decide if they can be thrown out? I wonder if these expenses I list could be a problem

[justbroke]

If you are over-the-median, the UST will probably poke at all those expenses. School lunches should be included in your "food" expense. If you're under-the-median, no one will probably even look at the expenses.

[olivies]

Many people here count the school lunches towards the "educational expenses" listing. Don't forget all the other things that come up with "free" public education which I'm sure you are encountering even now in Kindergarten: field trips, classroom activity fees, fundraising contributions, purchase of school supplies, etc. The $50 seems an ok amount for two kids - most schools down here charge $1.80-2.10 per lunch per day or $0.50 for milk if you bring a lunch and want to go with just purchasing milk. So I don't think that amount will raise questions (it will undoubtedly cost you more to pack a lunch daily unless you pack them just PB & J and an apple and some schools don't allow PB, so....)

The life insurance may draw a question if it's for just one policy- term insurance tends to be the lowest cost, but if that's the lowest rate policy you can get and can prove that with other quotes then don't sweat it.

[Moneypenny]

thanks for the great info.

so, if you are a couple bucks over on the term insurance does that mean the whole thing is thrown out, or just the part that is over? My wife has a health red flag while I am good, except that I am male. this $100 estimate is for two policies, shopped at select quote.

My thing is on the look back I am a whopping 10K below median, but on the look forward I may be as much as barely below the median. I dont know what my income will be for sure but the most possible is still barely below median (I know the means test is over for me, but this is in reference to the idea "if you are below the median." On the means test I am, on sched I and J, which is what we are talking about, I am just barely below median.

anyone have thoughts about the exercise and gymnastics?

[needanswers]

Do you have any pets? Are you allowed anything for that because they have food costs, vet bills, license fees, grooming. My dog costs me well over $100/month easily but I don't know what amount of that would even be allowed, if any.

[justbroke]

Moneypenny, since you're both below the median on the lookback and lookfoward... why are you even worried? List what you think you pay. Have your attorney review. If your attorney pushes it through, then it means that either s/he is willing to fight or don't expect one. The UST isn't out trying to get all the under-the-median filers. The generally ignore them unless they have other indicators of abuse (over $100K in non-medical debts is one example).

[Moneypenny]

thanks, that would be a great relief if so. right now i am trying to figure out if my expenses might work for a 7. I dont have a lawyer to tell me. It would be great if just being under median were enough and it doesnt matter what your expenses are, but I dont think that's true. But if it is true that it doesnt matter what your expenses are, fantastic! My life just got a lot better! Are you sure?

[justbroke]

Generally speaking, the UST doesn't poke at under-the-median filers unless they have high unsecured debt. Even with the $444 being "questioned" and taken out, you'd still be at $100 positive disposable income. That's still a Chapter 7!

I would keep the expenses, only moving the "lunches" to your food (add it to food category). List the exercise stuff (for you and kids) under Recreation. I'd put the books and dues under the "other" category and itemize them both (together) as "Professional Fees". And just list the life insurance (although it seems high).

Then I'd stop worrying!

[Moneypenny]

that sounds encouraging, but i probably wasnt clear: out of the 444 i listed, i need 344 of it to get to 0, or 244 to get to +100. So its right down to the wire. question one or two of these, and poof i'm screwed.

my unsecured debt is 67k now, but it was only 50k when i stopped paying.

MMP

[SMinGA]

$50/mo for 2 kids lunches = not unreasonable in my opinion. For my county, elementary lunches are $1.60 per child per day. Annualized that is $48/mo for 2 kids. While I know they do not go to school 52 weeks a year, my logic is that the grocery bill for summer/off weeks goes up. I don't count 'school lunches' in my grocery expense.

I don't know how the yoga/gymnastics will go over. That is something that may vary by district and/or trustee. Health benefits of regular, structured activity would be one argument in your favor. Family history of risk factors like heart disease, diabetes, etc. would be another.

From all I've heard, life insurance should not be a problem as long as its reasonable. Filing bankruptcy is a point in life where you should learn from your mistakes and move forward to a healthier future financially. Obtaining life insurance fits that I think. I don't know the recommended amount, but I think its something like 7-8x one's annual income. You may not need to go that high, depending on the cost of obtaining a policy, but getting something lined up seems like a good idea.

Books, research, membership dues - all seem reasonable (to me) based on your previous posts about your line of work. The only thing that makes me wonder about though, does your employer (college/university) provide a free fitness center/wellness center to its students and employees? I know many do these days. If so - your profession may get you in trouble on those yoga classes...

[Moneypenny]

thanks a bunch. i never thought about the fitness center at the U. It does cost, not sure how much but probably less than 79 a person, maybe 79 for two is about the same. however, it is at least 30 miles away from where i live. i wonder if that matters.

mmp