Need Input about expenses please!!!

[Ann]

I recently paid my lawyer his entire fee to file a chapter 7 for my husband and I. We are way over on the means test. Unexpected overtime on my husbands income in the last few months. Here is the question I have. We have many expenses but when I take the online means test it still puts me in a chapter 13 saying I'm over by about $187.00 each month. I do not want a 13 for the simple fact that overtime is not always going to be there. It is sporadic. Is there a way to include more justifiable expenses? My husband has not been contributing to his 401K at work but if he suddenly added that would that raise a question? Also, because I do have my own very small business can I add estimated quarterly tax payments as an expense even if I have not done so in the past? I'm honestly not trying to get by with anything here. I just know for a fact that just because the last few months have given us a little more income does not mean it will be there the next month. If we are placed in a 13 I know we will fail and what good is that? Also, can I list my payments on a student loan as an expense? I'm confused and have yet to speak with my lawyer about this. Please if anyone can give me something to go on here I would apppreciate it very much!

[newbie2]

If your attorney hasn't already filed the plan for you, ask him/her to wait. Put a bit of time between the unexpected overtime pay and the 6 month look back. That may put you under the means test.

Also, make sure you go over your expenses carefully. There are many that most of us forget to include when we first start the process: School lunches, clothing, cell phones, etc.

I forgot to add re: the quarterly tax payments: If you and your husband owe the IRS at the end of the year, then by all means average out what you send to them and add that to the monthly expenses. An example: If you owe the IRS and state $1200 then that would be $100 more to add to your expenses. I would be wary about adding the monthly expense if you don't actually incur it (either quarterly or yearly).

[momofthree]

Why the rush to file right now? Are you being sued? If possible, your best bet would be to wait a few more months for the overtime to fall off the 6-month look back.

[newbie2]

If your attorney hasn't already filed the plan for you, ask him/her to wait. Put a bit of time between the unexpected overtime pay and the 6 month look back. That may put you under the means test.

Also, make sure you go over your expenses carefully. There are many that most of us forget to include when we first start the process: School lunches, clothing, cell phones, etc.

I forgot to add re: the quarterly tax payments: If you and your husband owe the IRS at the end of the year, then by all means average out what you send to them and add that to the monthly expenses. An example: If you owe the IRS and state $1200 then that would be $100 more to add to your expenses. I would be wary about adding the monthly expense if you don't actually incur it (either quarterly or yearly).

Edited: I realize you are from Michigan (read some of your old posts) The trustee in our case questioned our payments to the IRS and we had to show proof (via cancelled checks). Do not add the expense if it isn't legitimate.

[Ann]

I cannot wait any longer. I have not made a payment to my unsecured creditors since July of 09 and I do not want to take the chance of a lawsuit coming my way just because I waited. As far as overtime, that is something that could go on or stop anytime. Waiting any longer will not help me in that respect. Newbie, thanks for the advice about quarterly payments. I will leave that alone since no, I haven't made any payments in the past. Still confused about what you can claim as an expense though. I thought you can only use the standards set by the IRS as far as food, clothing and whatever else. So incredibly tired of all of this and just want this to be over soon. What a nightmare. Doesn't the cellphones and cable come under the standards for utilities? I mean they will not take into account my actual bills only what they allow me to claim right? I'm more confused than ever. Still haven't heard from my attorney.

[newbie2]

I cannot wait any longer. I have not made a payment to my unsecured creditors since July of 09 and I do not want to take the chance of a lawsuit coming my way just because I waited. As far as overtime, that is something that could go on or stop anytime. Waiting any longer will not help me in that respect. Newbie, thanks for the advice about quarterly payments. I will leave that alone since no, I haven't made any payments in the past. Still confused about what you can claim as an expense though. I thought you can only use the standards set by the IRS as far as food, clothing and whatever else. So incredibly tired of all of this and just want this to be over soon. What a nightmare. Doesn't the cellphones and cable come under the standards for utilities? I mean they will not take into account my actual bills only what they allow me to claim right? I'm more confused than ever. Still haven't heard from my attorney.

When you get a chance go through this forum and search for "expenses". That will help you quite a bit with what you may be missing.

As far as cell & cable, our attorney added those in under miscellaneous expenses. They were not part of our utility budget. (Utilities were for our gas, electric & water bills).

[BCA2009]

When you get a chance go through this forum and search for "expenses". That will help you quite a bit with what you may be missing.

As far as cell & cable, our attorney added those in under miscellaneous expenses. They were not part of our utility budget. (Utilities were for our gas, electric & water bills).

For the means test you are pretty limited to the IRS amounts on the food and utilities stuff, unless you have unusual circumstances (food allergies, special diet due to medical reasons). Any thing over the IRS amounts you have to document and convince the trustee that they are required.

On schedules I & J, you have a little more leeway. You are completing a budget too determine what your expenses would be if you are allowed to file Chap 7. On these forms you can include estimated amounts for home repairs, car repairs, reasonable entertainment, 401K withholdings (at least in some districts). The trustee can still challenge the amounts, but usually the allowed expenses on schedule J are more liberal than on the means test.

You have to pass both the means test and also have very little or negative disposable income on I & J to qualify for Chap 7.

[Ann]

Thank you for your input. My attorney will get back with me in a few days to let me know what my options are. I really appreciate those that take the time to answer my "call for help"!!!

[hamburgervol]

You need life insurance or do you have life insurance?

If not it could put a big dent in your $187.

[Ann]

Yes, already have that one listed! Thanks anyway though.

[BnkrptcyLwyr]

Did you ever think to tell your husband ... stop taking the overtime!!! Unless it's mandatory.

[barbj]

What about charitable giving?

[momofthree]

What about charitable giving?

I think you have to prove that you've been giving over time. When we put down our charitable giving on our budget the first thing my attorney asked (during our consultation even!) was "have you been giving this amount for at least the last year or 2 and do you have proof?"

[tightgrip]

Ann~ We are in the same exact boat as you! Ever since the end of January my husband was working atleast 2 extra days off just so we could make up for all the bills we had. It was getting hard though and they told him he could no longer work the OT unless it was mandatory so we stopped paying our cc at the end of january and we surrenderd a toy hauler and truck. So on January 25 we meet with our attorney and started there with no more OT . . . . well surprise surprise the hubby gets two bonuses in Feb for safety and quarterly so that screwed us there. But since then he hasn't worked any of his days off and the sad thing is we dropped our cc payments and the two secured loans and we are barely still making it. We are just over the median but we fail the means which is crazy because we have soo much debt. We were told we would need to be a 13 by the paralegal preparing our petition but we meet with the attorney monday to see what our options are we may be able to wait a couple months and still be able to file a 7 we will see another week of waiting!! Good Luck to you!

[SMinGA]

If filing a ch. 7, then yes to include the student loan payment on schedule J as you'll resume payment after discharge. If filing ch. 13, depends as some are deferred while in a payment plan.

For charitable contributions, it probably depends on the amount & district. We listed nothing - atty asked about church and I answered we give a little cash here & there but nothing much and no way to track. So he put in $20/mo.