New Thread: My Attorney is an @$$!!!

[LostNFound]

Seriously.
WHY do people have to be so rude? It's taken a very long time to get to this point of accepting defeat. We talked to the lawyer on Monday. He was great. He asked for a little more information. I emailed that along with questions that he never answered. It's been a week. You would THINK he could answer some questions.

So today, my husband called his office and talked to him. I got on the phone and mentioned a couple of my concerns. I guess I'm a little nervous about filing because we are $15K over being able to file BK/Chap 7 and I'm curious if we can count ANY of my deductions from daycare. We are $42K over if we can't claim the credit card used for business as a business expense. I feel like I NEED to know if we can make it. My husband hasn't made a mortgage payment on our rental properties this month, and we can afford to pay them--but the lawyer is advising NOT to pay it.

So, I'm questioning him because I don't want a Chapter 13.....and his response was, "I don't know, but maybe if you stopped speculating and let me get off the phone, I could look at your paperwork again and figure it out!" To which I wanted to say, "Maybe if you responded to my emails I wouldn't have to speculate!"

I already feel like he's being a jerk and we've hardly started. If he can't help me feel confident going into this, I'm wondering if I really want to use him? Is there a website somewhere that people can tell you WHO is a good lawyer and WHO is not? I want a nice one....not a nasty high powered jerk that doesn't remember who I am from 5 days ago! grrrrrrr

[SMinGA]

Have you paid this guy? If not, I'd say schedule interviews and meet with 2-3 others!

[Dannmcg357]

Your spidy senses are telling you something is wrong, it's been my experience I always regret it when I don't listen to them. I agree with SMinGA, if you haven't paid him get a second opinion

[LostNFound]

WE have NOT paid him. He told us on Monday that he needed additional information to determine HOW we are going to file (consumer or non consumer). So, we sent it and we've been waiting to hear from him. The first thing he asked my husband today was, "oh, now what was I supposed to be doing with this?" uhhhh....duh!?? And he told me that he would call me back in a half hour and it's been 3 hrs since I talked to him.

I need to start over....this is so hard.....uggghhh

[biotechsolution]

If you qualify for a 'non-consumer' bk you will not have to worry about being over income limits. The only way they can push you into a chapter 13 is by using 707(b) and they can't use that in non-consumer bk's.

I was almost 3X the income limit for mine and it went by without a hitch.


I had an old colleague who had a monthly income of 40K, non-consumer bk.

He had one heck of an attorney because he had an entertainment expense of $1500/month and he still had almost 3K unaccounted for in his schedules.
His discharge happened without any input from the UST.

If can you get yours classified has non-consumer you won't have any problems.

Find an attorney who only does 'business' bk otherwise you're wasting your time.

[ejhamilton]

WE have NOT paid him. He told us on Monday that he needed additional information to determine HOW we are going to file (consumer or non consumer). So, we sent it and we've been waiting to hear from him. The first thing he asked my husband today was, "oh, now what was I supposed to be doing with this?" uhhhh....duh!?? And he told me that he would call me back in a half hour and it's been 3 hrs since I talked to him.

I need to start over....this is so hard.....uggghhh

RUN!!!! Do you really want to be stuck with this jerk for the next 3 months? You are already hating him and it hasn't been long. He is supposed to help relieve your stress, that's what you would be paying him for, not for him to cause it!

You will find a good lawyer. Google some, you might be able to find some with reviews.

I'd run and never look back.

[newbie2]

Please please please get another attorney. Your gut instinct is telling you to do that. Listen to your instinct!

[LostNFound]

Thank you for all the responses. It's nice to have my feelings confirmed!!!! I have actually talked to a few attorneys. Apparently, our state has been broken up into sections by the county that we live in which makes it hard for me to get ANY lawyer I want. Many of them will talk to me, but then I find out I can't go to them anyway. I had it narrowed down to 2 of them and I only picked this one because the paperwork was easier to complete. I guess there was a reason for that! I'll have to start over on the new paperwork.

As for the consumer and non consumer Bk, we are over by 15K (consumer) and 42K (non consumer). However, he's not figuring in the ACTUAL business debt we have (which is over 80K that is tied up in our 2nd mortgage and a credit card). I'm sure I can find the proof in the paperwork if needed. There is probably more business debt on cards then that, but I am nervous to pull that up because I don't want any issues with our charges that were personal.

Anyway, I'm rambling...maybe the attorney was right...stop speculating and just DO it! By that, I mean, get another lawyer!

[dakota112]

I had 2 g.. awful lawyers before I found a wonderful 3rd atty who got me through this quagmire. Has been a rough year, a few more weeks to go i hope for my discharge. You need to get a new atty if not comfortable period. I even paid for the first , deposit on the second so dont feel bad.

[LostNFound]

dakota....how did you find a "good" one? The only thing I can find online is a couple of websites that seem to take over Google. It's like I have a handful of choices? I dunno. I'm sure that's all I can do, but I thought I would ask in case I missed something!
Thanks again...I know what we need to do.....and I will definitely do it after getting the comments on this board...

[justbroke]

The only way they can push you into a chapter 13 is by using 707(b) and they can't use that in non-consumer bk's.

I love that this is pretty much clear in most Districts.

The Region 21 Trustee (Georgia, Alabama and Florida), knows that you can't use a 707(b) motion to dismiss a "non-consumer" case. It's even in his package that non-consumer is a safe-harbour for any 707(b) motion to dismiss.

I know that not all Districts are in sync or have good caselaw on this, but it's pretty solid here in Florida. The UST could try to dismiss under 707(a), but that is really the old "substantial abuse" and is a very high threshold to meet. "Ability to pay" doesn't even allow them to dismiss in non-consumer cases! They must prove fraud or something else as well as "ability to pay".

LostNFound, I don't know what you mean by "we are over by 15K (consumer) and 42K (non consumer)". I guess we're wondering if your total debt (not payments/expenses) are more than 50% for your non-consumer. Remember, in most Districts, mortgages on your residence is a consumer debt... unless you can prove you obtained the mortgage to invest.

[LostNFound]

The lawyer we spoke with on Monday suggested that we file non consumer because our business debt outweighs our personal debt. However, after stating that fact, he decided to figure conservatively (not sure why?) and then work backwards. He added up ONLY the amount still owed on our rental properties and set that total aside. Then, he added up the total debt of all credit cards, personal home and cars and 2nd mortgage and put them in another total. The difference between those totals was $42K (more personal debt).

The problem with that amount is the 2nd mortgage for $60K was for investments. We took a stupid real estate class (paid $5K on credit card) and followed an 8 week program. At the end, they set us up to take out a 2nd on our house. We paid off the one rental house we had (for more buying power) and then used the rest of the money for down payments/closing costs towards houses that we purchased (5 in one year).

I can show proof of taking that class, and the dates would align with regard to purchasing houses and such. I'm confident that we can show where most of that money went if we had to. We also opened up 3 credit cards (we had 2 personal) to use for our business. I'm not sure if those will be as easy to prove, but we have 110K on credit cards and about 1/2 of it was business debt that was taken out in convenience checks--so I'm not sure how to prove it or if we would have to prove it if we already could prove the 2nd mortgage was for business debt.

Had I realized or known anything about filing non consumer bankruptcy, I would have never sold one of our houses in Dec 09 ($30K) and gave back a triplex bought on contract ($60K). There would have been no doubt that we had plenty of business debt. I wish they would look at that! I should have gotten legal advice when I was still trying to avoid BK. Now, it turns out it could have hurt our chances of a clean BK/non consumer.

I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. I hadn't considered the idea of a non consumer Chapter 7, nor did I know about it until speaking with this attorney. He could be trying to convince us to do something that would only get us into trouble--I don't know. I have no idea what to trust at this point. We need another legal opinion, I think.

[HHM]

I love how quickly everyone thinks this attorney is a jerk....hello, YOU HAVEN'T PAID HIM.

Until you fully analyze a persons case, an attorney is hamstrung on giving "specific" advice. I like how everyone on here assumes this information should be free. I wouldn't throw this attorney under the bus simply because you want answers to questions he can't give without investing at least a few hours of time (which you need to PAY FOR) to get ALL your information in detail, review it, and figure it out.

[LostNFound]

You are right HHM. I considered that. However, he specifically states that he does a free consult for as long as it takes (written on his website). When we talked to him Monday, he had our paperwork in front of him, but wanted more information (which we gave him). I don't think I was asking too much of him by giving him 5 days to respond, followed by a phone call that was less then polite. I realize that he is a professional and should be paid for his time. I may add, he told us up front that he was going to charge us $1000 more then advertised. We understood that and were very willing to pay it. However, that being said, there are certain factors that need to be taken into consideration relatively soon if we are going to proceed with this. I just wanted the answers he told me he would give me, but didn't. He also seemed confused when he spoke to my husband--as if he couldn't remember what he said he was going to do.

I honestly questioned if paying him the money would help his memory? Or would it lock us into working with a lawyer with no personality? I respect his time, but I also expect that he will do his best to help us through a difficult situation with patience and understanding. He's done this before--we have not. Naturally, we would have questions.

Time is valuable. His--and mine. So lets work together to make the best of it.

[HHM]

Fair enough, if he actually set that expectation, that is one thing. But in general, any good attorney will say this.

"If you are over median, then the court presumes you are a chapter 13 bankruptcy. There are a few limited exceptions...at which point he should ask you some questions to figure out if you are even in the ball park." Most good attorneys will help you figure out your goals and then develop a tactic for achieving it. The Goal is NOT chapter 7 bankruptcy, bankruptcy is a tactic. Getting out of debt, getting back in control of your finances IS THE GOAL; if chapter 7 isn't available to you, chapter 13 is. The goal is what is important.

To many people get locked into the mindset, I won't do 13 without ever really considering that it might be the way to achieve the GOAL. Do not get hung up on which tactic to employ.