Worried that I've committed fraud prior to filing..

[LostNFound]

Wow. Thanks for that information b2school.
Did you think about those checks when you did them? I mean, did you tell your attorney about it and he didn't tell you this would happen? Did you're mother have to pay it all back?

I'm wondering if my attorney will be able to tell me if we sold the camper for too little? I guess a lot will depend on what the trustee considers the value? I know we didn't sell her the camper for top retail because it wasn't worth that--at least to us. But on paper, to a trustee that wants to make a few bucks, I guess he can make it worth whatever he wants

We are expecting to get about $4-6K back from our taxes. If we can sell a house that we just listed, we should clear $8-10K. We have already decided that we are giving that money to the attorney or wherever he directs us. I had hopes of buying my car after the lease expired, but that's probably not going to happen. I may not have transportation for a while, but if I can have my life back AFTER BANKRUPTCY--I'll do it. Do you suppose the trustee will realize that we are trying and leave the camper issue alone? Or, is it worth that much time and effort to involve my mother?

[nickifan]

Trustees only make $60 per case on non-asset cases. They are trained to look for transfers to family members so that they can convert the case to an asset case and make some money. I was made an asset case because I wrote two $500 checks to my mother in a year to help her with her expenses. The trustee went after my mother for the money. If you want to avoid any chance of the trustee going after your mother, you would have to wait two years from the sale of the camper to file.

WHAT????

What state are you in??

Since the spring of 2008 I have helped a relative with more than $10K toward her expenses. (Not in one fell swoop; largest check ever was $2K, but generally it was several for $300, $400, etc.) Last check was about a year ago. Is this going to be an issue??? And how could that person be expected to give that money back to a trustee when it was used to keep a roof on their heads and gas in the car?? In other words, long since spent!! She'd have to file BK herself if they tried!

And speaking of mothers, I spend probably $15-20 a month to buy items for mine (on Medicaid in a nursing home; allowed only $60 for expenses and that all goes to get her hair shampooed and set once a week.) I'm talking about buying kleenex and wipes and a few bananas and a snack that she loves...Is that expense going to be an issue??

I have not worked for two years so I can't imagine how I can be made into a Ch 13 if I file soon, but still....this is beyond insane to me what happened to you!

[music12]

LNF: take a deep breath. you are worried far more than you need to be. i think in your situation, you will feel much more secure if you get some letter from the insurance company saying how much the hail damage was, because then you'll know that if the trustee asks, you can just show this to him. but, see what your lawyer says first. they may think it's not important enough.

nickifan: i agree that what happend to backtoschool is totally insane. for your situation, as far as i know the look-back period for giving money to family is either 1 or 2 years. i think it depends on district. if it's 2 years, you may have to wait a year to file. as to the 15-20 a month, that probably comes to less than 200 a year, which is an allowed amount for gifts to family, so it's not something to worry about, plus you could just report it as part of your own expenses, it's seriously such a small amount of money that i wouldn't report it separately.

[backtoschool]

Wow. Thanks for that information b2school.
Did you think about those checks when you did them? I mean, did you tell your attorney about it and he didn't tell you this would happen? Did you're mother have to pay it all back?

I'm wondering if my attorney will be able to tell me if we sold the camper for too little? I guess a lot will depend on what the trustee considers the value? I know we didn't sell her the camper for top retail because it wasn't worth that--at least to us. But on paper, to a trustee that wants to make a few bucks, I guess he can make it worth whatever he wants

We are expecting to get about $4-6K back from our taxes. If we can sell a house that we just listed, we should clear $8-10K. We have already decided that we are giving that money to the attorney or wherever he directs us. I had hopes of buying my car after the lease expired, but that's probably not going to happen. I may not have transportation for a while, but if I can have my life back AFTER BANKRUPTCY--I'll do it. Do you suppose the trustee will realize that we are trying and leave the camper issue alone? Or, is it worth that much time and effort to involve my mother?

I told my attorney about the checks but she didn't think the trustee would go after my mother. He did. I think he did because he couldn't find anything else to go after. I was a formerly high income filer, that waited six months to file after I became unemployed so that my income would be low enough to qualify for a chap 7. But my income tax returns showed a high income so the trustee went after me. I paid the trustee. I was not going to have my mother pay it. The trustee scared her enough by even contacting her.

If you sell the car before you are discharged, the trustee may go after the money. I personally think that the trustee will go after the camper. They are trained to look for low hanging fruit like transfers to family members. Get an appraisal regarding the hail damage, and you will at least win if your case goes before the bankruptcy judge, when you contest the trustee, but I think that the trustee will go after the camper.

The trustee will look at the bluebook or nola value of the car to determine if you undersold.

[OhioFiler]

WHAT????

What state are you in??

Since the spring of 2008 I have helped a relative with more than $10K toward her expenses. (Not in one fell swoop; largest check ever was $2K, but generally it was several for $300, $400, etc.) Last check was about a year ago. Is this going to be an issue??? And how could that person be expected to give that money back to a trustee when it was used to keep a roof on their heads and gas in the car?? In other words, long since spent!! She'd have to file BK herself if they tried!

And speaking of mothers, I spend probably $15-20 a month to buy items for mine (on Medicaid in a nursing home; allowed only $60 for expenses and that all goes to get her hair shampooed and set once a week.) I'm talking about buying kleenex and wipes and a few bananas and a snack that she loves...Is that expense going to be an issue??

I have not worked for two years so I can't imagine how I can be made into a Ch 13 if I file soon, but still....this is beyond insane to me what happened to you!

I've paid my mother's mortgage for her since she retired 1 1/2 years ago and my attorney never batted an eye at it.. There is even a line item on Schedule J (line 15) for such an expense.

[backtoschool]

I've paid my mother's mortgage for her since she retired 1 1/2 years ago and my attorney never batted an eye at it.. There is even a line item on Schedule J (line 15) for such an expense.

I think in my case, the checks were considered "transfer of cash assets". You are paying the mortgage company directly right?

[backtoschool]

WHAT????

What state are you in??

Since the spring of 2008 I have helped a relative with more than $10K toward her expenses. (Not in one fell swoop; largest check ever was $2K, but generally it was several for $300, $400, etc.) Last check was about a year ago. Is this going to be an issue??? And how could that person be expected to give that money back to a trustee when it was used to keep a roof on their heads and gas in the car?? In other words, long since spent!! She'd have to file BK herself if they tried!

And speaking of mothers, I spend probably $15-20 a month to buy items for mine (on Medicaid in a nursing home; allowed only $60 for expenses and that all goes to get her hair shampooed and set once a week.) I'm talking about buying kleenex and wipes and a few bananas and a snack that she loves...Is that expense going to be an issue??

I have not worked for two years so I can't imagine how I can be made into a Ch 13 if I file soon, but still....this is beyond insane to me what happened to you!

If you wrote checks to your mother that are over $600 total in a one year or two year look back period (depending on district) then the trustee may go after the money. The $15-20 a month will not be questioned because it will fall under those limits. The other money you gave in 2008 will be a red flag for the trustee.

[OhioFiler]

I think in my case, the checks were considered "transfer of cash assets". You are paying the mortgage company directly right?

I had her refinance her mortgage when she retired to lower her monthly payment. She refinanced through her bank she has her checking account with. She received a 1/4 point discount for auto withdraw from her checking account when she accepted the loan. I make a deposit each month into her checking account equal to her mortgage deduction.

[backtoschool]

I had her refinance her mortgage when she retired to lower her monthly payment. She refinanced through her bank she has her checking account with. She received a 1/4 point discount for auto withdraw from her checking account when she accepted the loan. I make a deposit each month into her checking account equal to her mortgage deduction.

are you claiming those expenses on your expense schedule? Maybe because they are longer term expenses over time there is no issue. In any case, my trustee was on a fishing expedition...

[OhioFiler]

are you claiming those expenses on your expense schedule? Maybe because they are longer term expenses over time there is no issue. In any case, my trustee was on a fishing expedition...

Absolutely I am claiming it. The transactions began the month she retired and have continued ever since. The attorney had no problem with it when I explained it to her.

[nickifan]

If you wrote checks to your mother that are over $600 total in a one year or two year look back period (depending on district) then the trustee may go after the money. The $15-20 a month will not be questioned because it will fall under those limits. The other money you gave in 2008 will be a red flag for the trustee.

Does it make a difference if it is gift or loan?
I can see that a loan I gave (and thus due to me) is an "asset" (though again, how one would get blood from a stone is beyond me)...but a gift is a gift is a gift, right?

P.S. the questionnaire I got from the attorney asks if you have made "payments in excess of $600 to any one person, creditor or anyone else during the last 90 days?" Then later it also asks "have you given any money or property (real or personal) to any relative or close friend in the last 4 years?"
Seems to me the critical terms there are defining "payments" (which to me implies paying on a credit card or loan) and "given", which implies gift.

[backtoschool]

Absolutely I am claiming it. The transactions began the month she retired and have continued ever since. The attorney had no problem with it when I explained it to her.

i didn't claim mine so maybe that is the difference.....

[backtoschool]

Does it make a difference if it is gift or loan?
I can see that a loan I gave (and thus due to me) is an "asset" (though again, how one would get blood from a stone is beyond me)...but a gift is a gift is a gift, right?

P.S. the questionnaire I got from the attorney asks if you have made "payments in excess of $600 to any one person, creditor or anyone else during the last 90 days?" Then later it also asks "have you given any money or property (real or personal) to any relative or close friend in the last 4 years?"
Seems to me the critical terms there are defining "payments" (which to me implies paying on a credit card or loan) and "given", which implies gift.

gifts are a problem too.

[OhioFiler]

i didn't claim mine so maybe that is the difference.....

Perhaps. I do think your trustee was skeptical of you and put your entire situation under the microscope and all he could argue was those payments to your mother.

[backtoschool]

Perhaps. I do think your trustee was skeptical of you and put your entire situation under the microscope and all he could argue was those payments to your mother.

I totally agree.