Passed means test - amazing

[MarieT]

Thanks Calgirl!! I believe we have a good attorney. Can I ask how much your mortgage is? I think I may have really messed up being able to get the CH7 because I did a loan mod a few months ago which reduced our payment by almost $1000 a month for the next 5 years - then it goes up by 1% a year capping at 5.125% so great deal and now we can almost afford our mortgage but may really screw us on the BK deal. I also challenged and reduced our property taxes by over a third two years ago so our previous payment with everything was about $4,500.

We are not at $120,000...more like $110,000 income. Our mortgage prior to the loan mod was about $4,200 and now it's $3,300. My husband pays out child support and we have an IRS debt but we hope the IRS debt will be written off in BK but my understanding is that we can use that payment since we have it prior to the BK to help qualify for the BK.

[MarieT]

I just checked and in my area we can use the whole mortgage in the means test but still same issue as it's lower now than it used to be. It looks like we can also use actual car payments but those are the lowest ones we have ever had. Seems like I have worked really hard to lower our expenses and it's going to bite me in the butt on getting the BK!!!

[srjth]

UPDATE: We had our 341 a few wks ago, trustee didn't bat an eyelid at our high income and high credit card debt. Meeting took about 4 mins and yesterday we received our REPORT OF NO DISTRIBUTION from the UST.

Just want to reinforce that if you have a great attorney (yes they cost a lot more than the mill ones) and he knows his stuff you will be fine.

If your expenses, means test calculations and income are all reported and calculated correctly they have no reason to object. Its when you have a useless attorney who didn;t even fill out the forms himself.. you have reason to be worried.

You definitely get what you pay for.

Not really. My attorney only charges a $1500 flat rate and I was over the mean too. He made it work for me. I've had my hearing already and have a no asset case confirmed by the UST. I've had no objections (so far) and everything is going smoothly.

[justbroke]

Anyone who files pro-se must have rocks in their head and is asking for trouble. At our 341, 6 cases were self-filers AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAD THEIR CASE CONTINUED 'CAUSE THEY SCREWED IT UP. I listened very carefully and I was shocked at how much these people: left out, forgot, didn't do corrently.

That's a blaring condemnation of filing pro se that I can't stand idly by. My 341 Meeting was smoother than any attorneys. My 341 Meeting for my Chapter 7 lasted with only a minute or two... that was it. Spent most of the time joking with the Trustee.

There are many pro se debtors who have paperwork far superior to some law firms practicing bankruptcy law. I do agree that there are a bunch of pro se filers who never should file themselves... as they just make too many mistakes. Many Districts are not forgiving to pro se filers, nor do I believe they should be.

I agree on the NoLo guidebook, but, at a minimum, a pro se filer needs something to understand the law and the forms. I personally found it useless, but I did buy it to see what it could provide me. I do suggest it to novice filers because if they are bent on filing pro se, they at least need a guide to walk them through the forms, the individual line items, and "how" to file.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, it's best to file through an attorney, but finding the right attorney is as important as... filing through an attorney. It's sort of oxymoronic, but it is what it is.

[blockhead]

Well also

You can have accurate paperwork, a smooth 341, then because of high debt, self-employment or some other flag, get a highly detailed request for documents from the UST, pretty much at any time before the end of the 60 day period, which they can extend if they want to, all under 707(b)(3) or 727. No 10 days within the 341 for that and none of it shows up on Pacer (unless they decide to oppose discharge or extend the time to object).

[justbroke]

You can have accurate paperwork, a smooth 341, then because of high debt, self-employment or some other flag, get a highly detailed request for documents from the UST, pretty much at any time before the end of the 60 day period, which they can extend if they want to, all under 707(b)(3) or 727. No 10 days within the 341 for that and none of it shows up on Pacer (unless they decide to oppose discharge or extend the time to object).

This is not true. They can not extend it solely "if they want to". They can only extend for cause. I have read at least 20 cases in my District where the Trustee's motion to extend time to file a dischargeability complaint was denied, because simply saying that they have too much work to do, or they forgot to get something done, is not sufficient cause. Sufficient cause has to be something where the debtor caused a delay, or there is real complexity in the case, from what I have read.

If the UST waits until day 50 to ask for a bunch of documents, I think that the Debtor would be able to stop a motion to extend quite easily... at least in Florida.

[blockhead]

Hope that's true here JL

as it's more or less what I'm going thru although you're right, waiting 50 says would be an exaggeration. But they can acc. to my atty extend it based on just not having had the time to look at the material sent to them earlier (in my case they requested the info 3 days after the 341)

[justbroke]

as it's more or less what I'm going thru although you're right, waiting 50 says would be an exaggeration. But they can acc. to my atty extend it based on just not having had the time to look at the material sent to them earlier (in my case they requested the info 3 days after the 341)

I have not read one case in which the Trustee had all the information well befoer the 60 days, to then have the timeline extended. Unless the case is complex, there is indicia of fraud, or general debtor delays, I just haven't seen it done. The extension was not meant to be used... just because the UST is busy. It's an affirmative defense, meaning that the UST can still motion to extend and the defense would be that the Statute doesn't allow for extension, except for "cause".

I'd pounce on the UST when the materials were sent in ample time (within 7 days of the 341 meeting), and they extend solely because they haven't had time.

"Allowing the UST additional time when he has failed to diligently investigate would ignore the mandated deadlines and diminish Debtor's legitimate interest in a prompt and speedy resolution of her bankruptcy case.... " In re Molitor (Bankr. S.D. Ga. Sep. 5, 2008)

[blockhead]

Thanks

That's useful..

[vxbabi]

Question

I live in Orlando, FL. Did you file in this district? Just want know what our chances are since we have the same scenario... way above the means test but with very high debt income ratio. Thanks.

[MarieT]

We are way above means test but our unsecured debt is about $120,000 and income is about $110,000. Secured debt a whole lot more than that!

[justbroke]

I live in Orlando, FL. Did you file in this district? Just want know what our chances are since we have the same scenario... way above the means test but with very high debt income ratio. Thanks.

I'm in Florida. I'm way above the median income (at least 300% of median). Family of 4. High housing expenses. So far so good, but I am a "non-consumer" case.

[liz417]

I keep reading on here that it is all about your expenses (we are over median about $21K) but I thought you were only allowed so much for expenses depending on where you live and how many in your household????

I have a higher mortgage than the IRS Standards and high vehicle expenses (long commute), those were the two that help "eat away" my disposable income. I also recorded EVERY PENNY before I filed BK, so that I wouldn't forget any expenses (waited a year before I filed, so I had plenty of time ;) ).

[2manybills]

We paid $3890 for our attorney, including filing fees. Some of the "mill" ones were in the $1900 - $2600 range and upon meeting with them, I decided they would do more damage than good One "mill" attorney had this to say "oh don't worry, they know me well down there (the UST) they give me a free pass, they won't question what is in your paperwork".

uugghh!! I left RUNNING down the street from that one.

As for expenses: So because we made so much income ($120k+) I was worried, but our attorney used calculations I didn';t know existed. ie: for mortgage expenses, he took not only the monthly payments BUT ALSO calculated all the payments we owe for the entire remainder of the mortgage loan term and used a percentage of that or something. Plus a whole bunch or other stuff. Anyway the trustee said it was all good, every expense was calculated correctly and it was all allowed.

PLUS we had a $8300 tax return we got 2 days before we filed, we got to keep every cent.

What is in the Nolo books is useless.. throw it away or sell it on eBay. Get yourself a very competent attorney who know what he/she is doing. I cannot stress enough how important it is to have excellent legal representation.
Anyone who files pro-se must have rocks in their head and is asking for trouble. At our 341, 6 cases were self-filers AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAD THEIR CASE CONTINUED 'CAUSE THEY SCREWED IT UP. I listened very carefully and I was shocked at how much these people: left out, forgot, didn't do corrently.

We're now in the 60 day club, smooth sailing all the way! What a HUGE weight off our shoulders.

Good for you calgirl!!! Ours was much the same. Without a hitch! I totally agree with you. Having worked in the legal field myself for many years, I can tell you -- you get what you pay for! It's all about preparation, presentation and knowing the case. If you have some "mill" attorney that has been sent by his firm, that has never read your file, you're screwed. I watched the TT at our hearing yell at 1 mill attorney. In my opinion, if all of your ducks are in a row, then you fly under the radar. And even if the UST asks questions, a good attorney is ready for them.

Best to you calgirl on a smooth 60 days!

[justbroke]

I don't like mills either, but they serve a purpose for the "cookie-cutter" cases. However, not everyone understands whether their case is a cookie-cutter no-hassle, no-asset, no-problem type case.